Steve's recent CMx2 Bones

[WineCape]

Originally posted by Dschugaschwili:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kellysheroes:

It is very true the outspoken are a minority in just about all cases, but, the hidden factor behind that, the outspoken minority have many friends in the "silent majority" as well.

This still doesn't make the outspoken minority representative of the silent ones.

Many silent ones (including me) do not have a shelf full of WWII books at home. They don't scream "my life is ruined" if the Panther's front upper hull armor slope is off by 0.5°. They wonder why there are dozens of infantry formations that are essentially equal except for the name. They only get confused by a dozen PzIV versions when four of them would be quite enough from a gameplay perspective. They bought CM because of the depth of the gameplay, not because there are 900 unit types in the game or because the cross-country speed of American half-tracks is modeled accurately. Many of them don't even care about the game setting as long as the game seems balanced and is fun to play.

It's no wonder that the silent ones are silent most of the time. They don't have the knowledge necessary to participate in a discussion about armor failure of high hardness plates against large caliber shells. And they don't care anyway. They will complain about invincible über-tanks in certain time periods because the game doesn't appear balanced then, not because some gun/armor is under-/overmodeled.

And they will take a look at the CMX2 demo, be impressed with what Battlefront has accomplished, and then buy the game. All because the game will be fun to play, not because they will have tested the penetration capability of the Sherman 75mm gun against the PzIV front plate to see if it matches their books....

Dschugaschwili</font>

[Derfel]

Thanks Tom for compiling and thanks Steve for taking time to give us a few answers.

A few points in favour of the ”Module” concept that has occurred to me;

1. A shorter interval between module/games is good marketing, there will allways be something new in the pipeline. Battlefront will be reviewed and commented on more often and (providing the product lives up to previous standards) this is a good thing from all kinds of perspectives.

2. Anticipation. There will be more modules to anticipate, buy, discuss and perhaps mod. I know Battlefront isn’t fond of comparisons to Squad Leader and ASL but this modular approach worked exceedingly well för Avalon Hill. I am (eeek!) old enough to remember the intense anticipation and discussions prior (and after) to a release of a new ASL module.

3. Room to maneuvre. It will be easier for Battlefront to do unexpected things or change direction if some concept or function in the game isn’t working out as expected when the next installment is months rather than years away.

4. Creativity. In my experience it is easier to put creative effort into several comperatively short and limited projects (i.e modules) than one humungus project (such as CMBB).

Finally on the topic of listening to the fanbase; laudable as this is, if taken to far it can kill a project. My example would be Harpoon 2 where the developers (imho) listened too much to fans that wanted every single thing under the sun and moon and wound up with a game that was well nigh unplayable and sales reflected this.

So this fan/customer is solidly behind you Steve (which is undoubtedly a great comfort to you). Good luck!

P.S Of course, once the game/modules are out I’ll be there to carp and criticise with the rest of the howling mob. D.S

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Derfel:

I am (eeek!) old enough to remember the intense anticipation and discussions prior (and after) to a release of a new ASL module.

Ummm...you realize the ASL community still exists, and that new modules are still eagerly anticipated - namely, the Axis Minors module that is on the verge of publication as we speak? So I guess your age could be anywhere from 6 years old on up....

[Derfel]

Gah... So I'm not only old enough to remember the old modules but old enough to NOT know about the new ones.... now I'm REALLY depressed...

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Derfel:

Gah... So I'm not only old enough to remember the old modules but old enough to NOT know about the new ones.... now I'm REALLY depressed...

sorry bout that... - this new interweb thingie is the best thing since sliced bread.

You remember unsliced bread, right?

[Derfel]

Now I know why you have the death sentence in 12 Peng threads...

P.S Good link, nice to see a new generation of Geekoids D.S

[Dook]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

When we want you to be able to "hack" something we'll provide direct support for it. Like TO&E/OB changes...

No, you will not get a bunch of open TXT files to play around with. Instead you will have the ability to change things arond in the Editor and/or Setup Phase in some ways, under some conditions, within certain parameters. You won't be able to make a 20 man Hampstertruppen Squad all armed with MG42s for example.

Steve

Am I the only one who noticed this? This is a big change and an answer to many players' prayers. Any more details available?

[Battlefront.com]

Thanks again guys for the support. It is very reassuring to have so many "old hands", with a full array of Grog qualifications, seeing the upsides to this strategy rather than inventing downsides, or at best disorting the importance of the things we must change to allow for the Module system.

Dook, sorry... no more details at this time. For the initial release I am not sure how much will get into the system. For the second release, likely more. At the very least you will be able to reorganize units into customized OOBs, like real world "task forces" are structured. This is important in CMx2 because C&C has a greater role than it did in CMx1.

Steve

[Scipio]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

The file format is encrypted because we don't want people hacking the file in the middle of a PBEM game. In theory you could some trees to get a better shot, then after the turn is generated put the tress back in. The other player would just assume it was a lucky shot.

We've said it before... locking up and encrypting the game data was done for the good of the game's integrity and the community's enjoyment of playing. Marketing reasons never, ever entered into the decision to keep the code locked up. The same reasoning is valid for CMx2 and therefore will remain (basically) unchanged. When we want you to be able to "hack" something we'll provide direct support for it. Like TO&E/OB changes...

No, you will not get a bunch of open TXT files to play around with. Instead you will have the ability to change things arond in the Editor and/or Setup Phase in some ways, under some conditions, within certain parameters. You won't be able to make a 20 man Hampstertruppen Squad all armed with MG42s for example.

Steve

Yep, hacking would be a problem, but I guess you misunderstood me - I didn't meant to use a plain txt files format for PBEM files, but for scenarios files like maps. Once a game has started, there shouldn't be a problem to include all scenario information in the PBEM file and encrypt them as usual = the way it's been done now.

20 MG42 Hamstertruppen or any other squad will be of course still hardcoded. But maybe, a third party editor (for example) would do better, or at least better for some people? My idea is just, must BFC claim to program the best or only possible editor?

[Battlefront.com]

Scipio,

Ah, I understand you now. Well... we absolutely don't want 3rd party editors to do things to the game data that we don't want done. We don't want 20 MG42 Hampstertruppen in our games... so we would never allow a 3rd party editor to manipulate such data anyway.

The problem with 3rd party editors, and even file hacking, is that whenever anything goes wrong or seems unrealistic... we get blamed for it as if it is our fault. I've seen that time and time again with other products so I don't think we are immune. So if we are going to get blamed for something we want to make sure it really is our fault

I'm also pretty sure that if there is an open TXT format file hackers can use this information to reverse engineer the encryption. Not 100% sure of this, but I do know that in theory this is true. And since we don't want files hacked..

Steve

[Scipio]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

I'm also pretty sure that if there is an open TXT format file hackers can use this information to reverse engineer the encryption. Not 100% sure of this, but I do know that in theory this is true. And since we don't want files hacked..

Steve

Point taken, I havn't seen it that way yet. Well, it was just an idea, and not an important one. You are allowed to continue with the current system .

Much more important for me is my "CM2 Battle of Verdun" game!

[MikeyD]

"...make sure we DO NOT do whatever that guy is demanding we do"

Gosh, it felt like he was staring straight a ME when he said that! I guess that means little hope for thir including my idea of working wristwatches on each individual soldier.

[Ace Pilot]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

And that is "make sure we DO NOT do whatever that guy is demanding we do".

I DEMAND that you do NOT make me a beta tester for CMx2.

[Battlefront.com]

Mikey... get a life! And while you are at it, get another one for Ace Pilot. That last post of his clearly indicates he needs some help

Steve

[kipanderson]

Hi,

Steve posted..

“Kinda similar to those who go on and on and on and on and on and on about some sort of big campaign system... we haven't made one, yet years later these same people are still here and obviously playing the non-meta campaign games we made Stand up guys and take a bow... you know we love ya!”

Oh noooo… first all hope of a Cold War game is brutally wrenched from me, now no hope of a full feature operational game welded to CM…. I need trauma counseling

In fact… as it happens I am still one of the hard core CM fans who could not be happier about all the bones thrown by Steve. Explained why in the “ranting Cold War” thread so will not repeat all the reasons here. (Even the possible settings for CMX2 sound perfect, likely to be NWE, Eastern Front and contemporary… with modules thrown in will happily keep me occupied for 5 years plus… no problem.)

All good fun,

All the best,

Kip.

PS. Based on the principle that I never give up…still optimistic of a file format allowing Saved games to be edited… would make meta-campaigns doable in a way they are not really practical now. The workload needed for real meta-campaigns is just too much without the above feature.

[76mm]

PS. Based on the principle that I never give up…still optimistic of a file format allowing Saved games to be edited… would make meta-campaigns doable in a way they are not really practical now. The workload needed for real meta-campaigns is just too much without the above feature.

I am in violent agreement with kipanderson--not to beat a dead horse here, but there is, ahem, a very vocal minority which is very interested in being able to edit saved games either via data import/export or another editing the saved files directly.

Steve cited the need to avoid cheating in PBEM games as a reason to encrypt scenario files, but (not to open this can of worms again) how many people play PBEM? What about selling a PBEM module to enable PBEM and otherwise leave scenario files unencrypted? I don't care about creating hordes of Hamstertruppen, but I would very much like to be able to save and manipulate basic OOBs from completed scenarios.

I realize that this is all probably much more complicated than I imagine, and that decisions on these matters have almost certainly already been taken, but I wanted to at least raise the issues...

76mm

[Pzman]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Mikey... get a life! And while you are at it, get another one for Ace Pilot. That last post of his clearly indicates he needs some help

Steve

We didn't need his last post to figure that out.

[Wartgamer]

Maybe a few calrifications about modules?

If I bu a module, will it be month/year/season/weather limited in some way? Will I still have quick battles that could represent actions other than the module 'theme'?

[Ardem]

I got a feeling I will have to change my name for the new version on CMx2 to IwilzOWnzYoos

Cause the more it shaping up that is the type of people in the 'Silent majority' it going appeal to. No I am not being negative and still got the wait and see approach but so far looking in the post above, people that are asking for rail guns and fast action are people that just stopped off the CS bus.

As for the 'silent majority' they don't care about CM or the series, they take every game on a game by game basis and reviews online, how glossy the box is in the shelves and friends that are into that style of game.

I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for some more original CM members saying I got this great game have a look at it.

Difference with the Total War series and CM is over the years the little fights have been about features added, the total war series has only ever increased the scope not decreased. Just look at the campaign stuff for Rome Total War compared to Shogun, leaps and bounds more enhancements.

CS has got its kids to entertain, Total War has it kids to entertain, with the CM product it always a totally different age group on average (maybe not on the forums) if you aim more for the kids and try and make it glossy with enough scope for kids that who will purchase it, you aim it for adults with depth and medium scope they will get it.

In the end we are already the winners if we don't like the scope we still have CMx1 and probably still be playing it for another 5 years until someone does it.

CMx2 will probably be treated like all the other games out there by other makers that haven't swayed the CMx1 community from going there, perhaps CMx1 is the perfect mix that not even BFC can even match in a new style of game.

BFC is taking the gamble that it will sway its own loyal fans and the silent majority to a totally new expereince good luck to them cause I think its not going to be easy.

Talking with the gaming group of guys that play CMBB and CMAK who don't post on BFC have exactly the same concerns that is being posted above, with a mixture of apprehesion and cross ones fingers. The Silent Majority steve talks about is all the people that haven't got CMx1 cause he just has to go to the different CM forums and he would notice several links to this exact thread, this is his customer base.

[ June 08, 2005, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: Ardem ]

[76mm]

Wartgamer,

I asked the question about weather/seasons and Steve replied that the modules will only include the weather/seasons necessary for that module (ie, a Normandy game would only have summer weather.

76mm

[Battlefront.com]

Ardem, don't be so sure that the silent majority is so different than most of the people on this Forum. At least when it comes to the basic reasons for buying, or not buying, a CM product. A strong interest in the subject matter, strategic/tactical thinking, ease of use, great gameplay value, etc. That can describe just about anybody who would be likely to purchase a CM product, does it not? That's the kind of stuff we've always been focused on and will continue to cocentrate on.

What we must not do is cater our entire game development and business strategy on things which whicih are "costly" yet the majority really don't require. What I mean by "costly" is time consuming and of limited appeal. Or worse, features that will kill interest in the game for the majority.

You old hands here will remember that I love to recount the Simpson's episode (with Danny DiVitto guest star) where Homer is put in charge of designing the ultimate "man's" car. It had all the kinds of features that people want, but when combined together the end product sucked. Others have pointed out game developers that have gone this route and been creamed (MOO IV wasn't mentioned ) and others which are like us in that they listen carefully, but implement features selectively.

Keep in mind that it is our direct sales model that saved us from McDonalds hamburger flipping so many years ago. It still does. In order to sell in this way we must have the right game to sell. We have no glitzy boxes or Aunt Ednas going around the Mall looking for something to buy little Billy. Nope, we got to get customers the old way... we must EARN them. So if you think that means abandoning our core audience, think again

Steve

[Bigduke6]

Steve,

Apropos your remarks about useless features and trying too hard to meet every marginal want, I am reminded of an old Soviet saying:

"If you ask a committee to design a horse, you will get a camel."

[Andreas]

In German it would be the "eierlegende Wollmilchsau".

[Ryan Crierie]

I'm very skeptical of this entire "module"

experience; I want a very comprehensive game

right from the start; that's what I love about

CMBO, CMBB, and CMAK, you could simulate a very

very very large cross section of warfare without

having to buy module after module.

I would buy these modules if they were fairly

comprehensive and theater wide; IE, Northwest

Europe from 1944-45, North Africa 1939 to 1943,

Italy from 1943 to 1945; The Ostfront from 1941

to 1943; the OstFront from 1943 to 1945; you get

the idea.

About the only time I'd buy a module other than

a comprehensive one would be if the subject matter

was so specialized that there was little to no

interest in it, such as France 1940, Poland 1939;

or WWII:1946, in which you get all kinds of

experimental vehicles like the Panther II,

Panther F, Panther G Uhu, T29 Tank Destroyer, etc.

[ June 09, 2005, 02:05 AM: Message edited by: Ryan Crierie ]

[Dschugaschwili]

All those I-want-it-all-in-one-game module haters should relax and think about the CM development for a while.

Suppose CMBO had come out with only German and American troops and without winter terrain/units. Would you still have bought the game? Remember that lots of people played the two (later three) scenario beta demo without an editor for many months before CMBO was actually released. Ok, they didn't pay for it, but it was much much much more limited than anything Battlefront is going to release.

Now imagine that Battlefront had said: You can have the game 6 months earlier, but with only Americans and Germans. I'm quite sure that the entire forum would have shouted: Do anything you want, but give me the game ASAP! Also, few people complained that the TCP/IP multiplayer mode was missing at first.

In short: as long as the modules are reasonably priced, I don't see anything wrong with this concept.

Dschugaschwili