Steve's recent CMx2 Bones

[Battlefront.com]

BTW, Andreas hit upon something I meant to mention earlier. And that is the Module concept INCREASES the possibility of getting oddball things. In other words, the effort for a Module is a lot less than a full game, therefore the risk factor is also greatly reduced for us. And since we can do many and not release one every 2 years... again, less risk of disaster if we released something only a minority wants. I'm not saying that we'd release something so off the wall that only a couple hundred people might buy it (it's just not worth it to us), but we might not have to choose between one that will sell x and another that will sell 50% of x. We could sell both instead of the more popular one.

Just more food for thought

Steve

[Michael Dorosh]

So, Steve, this will be like SWOTL and the expansion packs? Ie you will have one game, and the modules will simply add to the list of available equipment/scenarios/terrain etc.?

In other words, Close Combat was a series of seperate games; but let's say you have a CMX2 Game called Western Front.

So Western Front ships with the "Americans in Brittany" module as standard, and you get the US and German OOB for June-Aug 1944.

the first "optional" module is "Caen to Falaise". So you install CtoF and now you have one game, but with the German and American OOB for June-Aug 1944 as well as the British, Polish and Canadian OOB for June-Aug 1944. You can conceivably then have scenarios including troops from all these OOBs?

Which would make it easy at this point to release a "Normandy Landings" module - which would include the Canadian and British OOB for June (only) 1944 along with US and British special units - landing craft, naval artillery, parachute and glider units (and the ability to paradrop/glide), German fortress units etc. This would focus on 6 June 1944. Only prerequisite would be the original Game.

So from these two optional modules, you can pick and choose which units/capabilities appeal to you, while having both - plus the original Game - would give you the entire Normandy theatre, and the ability to utilize stuff from all three modules simulteously in QBs or DYO?

[ June 06, 2005, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Andreas:

I would feel far more comfortable working on a British Normandy module

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

BTW, Andreas hit upon something I meant to mention earlier. And that is the Module concept INCREASES the possibility of getting oddball things.

Arrrggghhh!!!!!!!!! Steve called the British in Normandy 'Oddball'. What other proof is required of the heinous US-centric anglophobe conspiracy that is BFC?!? We will never see Commonwealth forces again. Never, ever, mark me words guv'nor. We are doomed, doomed I say to play to the end of days with Yank accents and no happy diggers.

I want an irate discussion with name-calling of no less than 457 posts on this very matter that I just presciently inferred from a throwaway comment by Steve, and I want it now.

So Steve, how is day 1,984 of wargamer gurudom?

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

However, TO&E will be inherently more flexible than CMx1 to begin with...

I'd be interested to hear more about this when you feel ready to divulge, Steve.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

..."Americans in Brittany"...

Rewriting history, are we?

:confused:

Michael

[Doodlebug]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Kellysheros, you have to remember that we have a pretty sizeable fan base. Only a small percentage of them come to the Forum on any regular basis. The ones that do tend to be the most hardcore. All are responsible for our success, not just the ones that post.

When we do strategic thinking we need to keep in mind that the Forum is a sounding board for a minority of our customers. Important as they might be, if we alienate the REST we die for sure since the core isn't big enough to keep us going. If we alienate the core... we'd probably survive, though not without taking lumps. Obviously we want to find a balance, but if we are going to err it will be on the side of the majority of our customers not the minority. Thankfully we're very good at balancing stuff

Steve

Now this is something I have trouble getting my head round unless I've missed something of course. If only a minority express their opinions/viewpoint and post publicly for discussion how do you know what the silent majority think or want?

By stating that the vocal minority can be alienated, and for that I presume you mean "will not buy the next product", what the Devil happens if it transpires that the silent majority want exactly what the vocal minority said but hadn't bothered to say it? Haven't you just alienated every last customer at a stroke?

Don't misunderstand me. I will look at your offerings and take them if they're up to your usual quality, modular or full spectrum, almost regardless of period. I am more than prepared to take my experience of CMBO, CMBB and CMAK and move on and explore new interesting possibilities.

I post here ocasionally but I know of at least two sets of sales to players made because I trumpetted the quality of your games and the brilliance of your vision. Neither post here. Ever. I therefore, if vocal minority I be, can be counted threefold not once.

How can anyone know the mind of a silent un-commenting majority unless of course they are either in secret dialogue, psychic or planning a release dumbed down to the lowest common denominator.

[76mm]

Dear Steve;

Thanks for the response. From my perspective, what you guys are doing makes a lot sense--I still play CMBB extensively but virtually never play the Rumanians, Hungarians, or some of the less common German/Soviet types (even if knowing that I COULD play them if I wanted to is very cool), and as a non-grog I don't really care much for the difference between the four types of BT-7, etc. That said, I have three suggestions:

1) You make it as easy as possible for non-Battlefront parties to coordinate with you to release new modules, with these other parties bearing the risk. It sounds like given the vast number of periods/theaters that the new engine will open up, Battlefront alone will never have the time or interest to bring out the "Rumanian" module or the "Sedan 1940" and hundreds of similar modules that would make the game a real gem for a multitude of small audiences. My concern is that even vetting/tweaking/releasing these types of modules would take up too much time for you to consider it worth your while. I have no problem paying for modules, but I am concerned that the selection will ultimately be rather limited.

2) In a related point, for many modules, it seems like much less additional programming, etc. would be necessary. For example, if an "East Front" module consisted of a Stalingrad period To&E, etc. it seems like you wouldn't need to do much to release a "Barbarossa" module covering 1941-1942--just add the new vehicles, etc. It seems like this would be much less work than, say, a D-Day "On the Beaches" module, with amphibious vehicles, funnies, etc. Hopefully these "easier" modules would be released even quicker than the more complicated ones.

3) Consider including data import/export in a "Developer's Module" or something--just as long as I can get it, I don't care how!

76mm

[hellfish]

Though I'm hardly a voice around here, I want to express my joy with the whole concept of games and modules. My current wet dream is that one of the upcoming CMx2 titles will be something like:

CM2: Korea 2006 That will include core ROK, local US 2nd ID (Armor/Mech and Light Infantry) and NKPA forces.

Modules could then look like:

Korea: Stryker Brigade! which will add all the various Stryker models from the US-based 3rd Brigade of the 2nd Infantry Division, which would likely reinforce the Peninsula in war. Adds a whole bunch of missions to the game and maybe some of the older NKPA stuff (KOKSAM 170mm howitzer support, T-34/85s, BTR-152), older ROK stuff (M-48A3/A5s) and maybe a Seoul Terrain Tile Set.

Korea: Semper Fi! which will add a complete OOB of the USMC (1st and 3rd Marine Divisions) so we'll have AAVs, AAAVs, various LAVs, marine infantry, naval gunfire support, Harrier and Cobra air support, etc. Maybe an ]operation about a modern amphibious landing at Inchon or Hamhung (first battle is coordinating a MEU amphib assault - two companies in AAVs and a heliborne company against a NKPA costal defense force with some tank support, second battle is holding against counterattack, etc.).

and finally

Korea: Red Tide! which will add the Chinese People's Liberation Army - Type 98 MBTs, Type 63A amphibious tanks, etc.

Figuring $45 or so for the core game and $20-30 for each module, Battlefront could potentially be swimming in money, especially if they snag defense contracts. I could totally see West Point or the Marine Corps Warfighting Labs using something like this.

I look forward to my gaming future now.

[ June 06, 2005, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: fytinghellfish ]

[MikeyD]

"Americans in Brittany." isn't that a reality show currently on TV?

BFC ought to send letters of thanks to all the TV networks thanking them for NOT producing shows that might distract us from playing CM.

By 'oddball' I hope they mean Canadians in Normandy being supported by Brit Churchills (I like Churchills). One problem with Normandy battles is how it'd only be the Allies that would go outside-of-mainstream. For the German side you've got generic Heer, SS, and paratroops. Unless you want to go very creepy - like Hitler youth or French SS volunteers! :eek:

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

..."Americans in Brittany"...

Rewriting history, are we?

:confused:

Michael </font>

[aka_tom_w]

Well Put Doodlebug! GREAT post!

I was thinking of something exactly like the comments in your post below, but I did not craft them into such a nice post and share them here. But I am thinking the exact same as you.

From the point of view of MOST politicians if they receive a comment or a complaint from ONE person they can EASILY guess or project that at least 10 other people feel EXACTLY the same way. But maybe that is JUST politicians lieing to us again so who really knows???

-tom w

Originally posted by Doodlebug:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Kellysheros, you have to remember that we have a pretty sizeable fan base. Only a small percentage of them come to the Forum on any regular basis. The ones that do tend to be the most hardcore. All are responsible for our success, not just the ones that post.

When we do strategic thinking we need to keep in mind that the Forum is a sounding board for a minority of our customers. Important as they might be, if we alienate the REST we die for sure since the core isn't big enough to keep us going. If we alienate the core... we'd probably survive, though not without taking lumps. Obviously we want to find a balance, but if we are going to err it will be on the side of the majority of our customers not the minority. Thankfully we're very good at balancing stuff

Steve

Now this is something I have trouble getting my head round unless I've missed something of course. If only a minority express their opinions/viewpoint and post publicly for discussion how do you know what the silent majority think or want?

By stating that the vocal minority can be alienated, and for that I presume you mean "will not buy the next product", what the Devil happens if it transpires that the silent majority want exactly what the vocal minority said but hadn't bothered to say it? Haven't you just alienated every last customer at a stroke?

Don't misunderstand me. I will look at your offerings and take them if they're up to your usual quality, modular or full spectrum, almost regardless of period. I am more than prepared to take my experience of CMBO, CMBB and CMAK and move on and explore new interesting possibilities.

I post here ocasionally but I know of at least two sets of sales to players made because I trumpetted the quality of your games and the brilliance of your vision. Neither post here. Ever. I therefore, if vocal minority I be, can be counted threefold not once.

How can anyone know the mind of a silent un-commenting majority unless of course they are either in secret dialogue, psychic or planning a release dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. </font>

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Doodlebug:

How can anyone know the mind of a silent un-commenting majority unless of course they are either in secret dialogue, psychic or planning a release dumbed down to the lowest common denominator.

I am not sure if Steve has really said he 'knows' what the silent majority wants. But in any case, I would credit BFC with a good amount of gut feeling, based on their general approach and their record, and balanced by their enlightened self-interest.

Probably comes with years in the industry.

Regarding quality control of modules - that clearly could become a tricky issue, and will take BFC into somewhat unchartered waters in terms of team management, I guess, since even for not-so-obscure subjects such as e.g. Commonwealth TO&E, they may not have the inhouse expertise (at the moment) that could compete with JonS, John D. Salt, Dorosh, and Dandelion, to name but four (to be honest, I think anyone organisation would be challenged taking it up with them in a no-holds-barred grog competition). I'd be interested to see how they deal with that.

[flamingknives]

Part of it may well be that the 'silent majority' isn't literally silent. They're not as obvious as they tend not to throw their dummy out of the pram when they percieve some kind of injustice, which is surely directed solely at them. The number of times you see a thread of "what would be good for CMX2" and within the first few pages you have any number of negativists posting stuff like:

"WWII is the only one any person could possibly be interested in. If it isn't WWII (Usually in NWE) I'm not buying it, neither will anyone else and BFC will be consigned to the firey pits of Hades for all eternity"

Presumably where they'll be subject to the witless prattle of those who are expert at making computer games without having to go the route of ever making one.

Perhaps BFC listen to the ones who aren't holding forth on how their view of the world is right and anything else is unacceptable.

Which unfortunatly means they're not going to listen to me.

Like that's going to stop me from finishing with my 3.64 cents (2 British pence):

To all those people threatening to not buy the game unless it is exactly to their specifications I, in the place of BFC, would say;

"Don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out."

A well argued case is far more convicing than having a strop and making lame threats. We're all going to buy one or more CMX2 game, and you know it.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

A well argued case is far more convicing than having a strop and making lame threats. We're all going to buy one or more CMX2 game, and you know it.

At the very least, we will wait til it is produced (maybe even try a demo) before whining about it. Hell, I even paid full price for EYSA, and ended up giving it away a month later.

[Wartgamer]

So a patch will be a 'game' patch or a 'module' patch? Or both? Will 'modules' be packaged together at some point so that a 'series' may be purchased?

[ June 06, 2005, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

[Doodlebug]

Originally posted by Andreas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Doodlebug:

How can anyone know the mind of a silent un-commenting majority unless of course they are either in secret dialogue, psychic or planning a release dumbed down to the lowest common denominator.

I am not sure if Steve has really said he 'knows' what the silent majority wants. But in any case, I would credit BFC with a good amount of gut feeling, based on their general approach and their record, and balanced by their enlightened self-interest.

Probably comes with years in the industry.

Regarding quality control of modules - that clearly could become a tricky issue, and will take BFC into somewhat unchartered waters in terms of team management, I guess, since even for not-so-obscure subjects such as e.g. Commonwealth TO&E, they may not have the inhouse expertise (at the moment) that could compete with JonS, John D. Salt, Dorosh, and Dandelion, to name but four (to be honest, I think anyone organisation would be challenged taking it up with them in a no-holds-barred grog competition). I'd be interested to see how they deal with that. </font>

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Doodlebug:

In a year from now we may well all be witness to a whole new grog fest in which learned professors discuss "invertebrate sensory deprivation in zero-G environments" if "Space Lobsters of Doom" becomes a reality. What use your CW TO&E knowledge then?

Wait for some other company to come up with a copycat game? **shrugs**

Still waiting for the copycat of CMBO of course. I think the other companies are too busy trying to outdo CM - Wartime Command or whatever it was called, etc. They're doing a bad job.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Doodlebug:

I agree entirely with you but for the fact that the most vocal commentators here might just be as much in tune (or more) with public sentiment on this particular period and type of game than Steve comprehends. No-one can possibly know till the silent ranks speak and they will do that by putting their hand in their pocket and parting with their hard earned money when the time comes.

You must have missed the bit about accurate gut-feeling (there is such a thing) coming from years of experience in the industry. IOW - few to none of the people posting here have it for the games industry, so I doubt they are as much in tune with things as Steve and Charles. Regarding 'knowing' if people will open their wallets. 'Know' is such a harsh word. I guess that 'seriously expect' does quite well in most cases.

Originally posted by Doodlebug:

Quality control will only be a problem if the sources and experts are demonstrably wrong. I do not doubt for one moment though that the commitment to historical accuracy we have seen in all the games will continue.

I do not doubt that the commitment will be the same. The means to implement it will be radically different though, with much shorter lead times. I don't think it will lead to lower quality, and I never said I do, either. I do think it is a management challenge for BFC though, and I look forward to seeing what they do come up with to address it.

Originally posted by Doodlebug:

As for grogs it all depends on the setting and time frame of the next game. In a year from now we may well all be witness to a whole new grog fest in which learned professors discuss "invertebrate sensory deprivation in zero-G environments" if "Space Lobsters of Doom" becomes a reality. What use your CW TO&E knowledge then?

"The Grog is dead. Long live the Grog."

And so Life's circle of renewal goes on.......

Well, let me put it this way - I doubt that this is anymore likely than heaven falling on my head.

[Doodlebug]

Originally posted by Andreas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Doodlebug:

Well, let me put it this way - I doubt that this is anymore likely than heaven falling on my head. </font>

[KG_SSpoom]

Although I will miss the scope and scale of CM1

the potential to open up other conflicts is Imho

going to be worth it. Im not at all worried about

quality issues with this line they havent let me down yet, Improving on each game in series.

Keep up the good work.

Would love to see Napoleanic or American Civil

War done in cm2 (earlier the better)

Steve

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

...So I will try to posts Steve's recent hints and comments here in order of appearance in the other thread...

Tom, thanks a million for putting this together.

[aka_tom_w]

You are more than welcome

I did for my own sanity so I could stay current with all the recent bones that came out in a kind of "flury" lately and did not want them to be lost in a locked and buried thread as it was over 300 posts at the time I gathered them and posted them.

"it takes a village"

(If you don't know what that means it might be because you are not a parent)

-tom w

[Kellysheroes]

I see many of you are not aquaited with the REAL business world out there and that "silent majority" of customers that can make or break any business. I worked in retail management long enough to know if you don't appease the outspoken ones, the silent majority will soon follow. I've watched many a business come and go with the attitude that the customer isn't always right.

It is very true the outspoken are a minority in just about all cases, but, the hidden factor behind that, the outspoken minority have many friends in the "silent majority" as well. And it will be the outspoken that tell the tale of a game or any product for that matter if it is good or bad or doesn't offer what it should have offered. The outspoken are what bring many a silent majority into a business or to buy something. Silent ones listen, they read and they believe in their "friends" over any business individual.

One can just look back at past game developers and businesses no longer in business or having to have moved on to another company. They got to smart and loud for their breeches and ended up in the unemployment line or producing "someone elses game".

So I wouldn't just go discounting us "minority" forum members so easily. Word of mouth is the best advertisement or a companies worst nightmare.

[Salkin]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

BTW, Andreas hit upon something I meant to mention earlier. And that is the Module concept INCREASES the possibility of getting oddball things. In other words, the effort for a Module is a lot less than a full game, therefore the risk factor is also greatly reduced for us. And since we can do many and not release one every 2 years... again, less risk of disaster if we released something only a minority wants. I'm not saying that we'd release something so off the wall that only a couple hundred people might buy it (it's just not worth it to us), but we might not have to choose between one that will sell x and another that will sell 50% of x. We could sell both instead of the more popular one.

Just more food for thought

Steve

Steve, I'm not sure if this have been asked , but do you need a guy to fetch coffe for you and do the odd pizza delivery ?

I'm ready and willing to quit my day job to get a look at CMx2 .

Just asking....

//Salkin

Swede starting to get the shakes

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Kellysheroes:

I see many of you are not aquaited with the REAL business world out there and that "silent majority" of customers that can make or break any business.

Except for BFC of course, unless their experience is somehow not REAL. But hey, they have only made money out of this and grown their enterprise from two guys to six over the last six or seven years or so, in the time producing the best wargames bar none for the computer, so what do they know?

This is probably the point where an economics professor I once met would ask: "If you're so smart, why ain't you rich?" Or in our context - why are you not running the most successful grog-core wargames franchise for 20th century warfare out there?

Originally posted by Kellysheroes:

I worked in retail management long enough to know if you don't appease the outspoken ones, the silent majority will soon follow. I've watched many a business come and go with the attitude that the customer isn't always right.

Two things:

1) It ain't retail, there is no Wal-Mart or shopping mall down the road that they have to compete with. Where exactly are you going to take your hard-earned money if you get pissed off at BFC and want to buy another wargame that delivers this amount of realism?

2) Steve has had his attitude for as long as I can recall. I can remember Steve participating in flame-wars about running HMGs, and I believe people told him then that he should not behave like that to his customers. So according to your REAL experience, BFC should no longer be around.

Seems to me it is time for you to adjust your pre-conceptions to reality.