Have Times (and/or Techs) Changed...?

[Krinks]

So, I was idly looking throughout the archives, looking at some of the grumblings about CMBO, and came across this post:

Big Time Software

unregistered

- posted February 14, 1999 11:01 PM

So... besides thinking that realtime does NOT allow for strategic planning, there are hundreds of gameplay reasons why are going to stay away from RT. If you wonder why CC3 has such a strict limit on unit counts, map sizes, and "realism", look no further than its realtime nature. If CC3 was at CM's scope, or was in 3D, you probably would have to buy the fastest system out there to even have a hope of running it

Steve

Just out of curiosity, if realtime does not allow for strategic planning, why implement it now? Sure, you could've made it an option, with a full WEGO system as well, but why gear CMSF to realtime. I'm just wondering if times have changed your minds, or technology now allows for strategic thinking in realtime play. Personally, I prefer WEGO for the very reasons stated in the quote, and I understand people feel differently. This isn't a gripe, just wondering what has changed...

[track]

They did a market research and noticed that real-time titles sell better?

Plus computers got a bit faster.

[buckmaster]

Isnt real time more, well real?

[Swift]

Originally posted by buckmaster:

Isnt real time more, well real?

It is if you have only one unit to command or sub commanders that follows orders. For CM it is not.

However I have found that I somewhat like the RT option of CM:SF. It turns the game into something else but as I don't trust the current AI I rather play with pauses then turns so I have better control. However I always liked the fact that you gave orders to units and then had the agony to watch them trying to follow them (Tiger! Shoot you silly gun!!! Noooo)

Hopefully the AI will improve and WEGO will become better. Even then I am sure I will play RT for short fun sessions and save WEGO for the more complex battles.

If only I could rewind and look at all the thngs htat happens (from all angles) in a RT game. Charles?

[ August 04, 2007, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: Swift ]

[KNac]

IMO

when people gets used to new UI, and some features are polished (UI shortcuts, pathfinding & tacAI) & bugs solved, gradually people will move towards RT

you just have to find the force size that sweets you to play in RT AND do strategic planning, or better said, execute it in a correct and formal tactical way.

apart of that is obvious that nowadays computers are FAR more powerfull than 99 computers, and that in 8 more years we will have technology we can't dream about now. the problem is the manpower hours neccessary to optimize and get all the potential of that technology, this problem is increasing exponentially as well as the tech.

[monkeezgob]

I'd be very surprised to learn if the move towards RTS was driven by anything other than trying to interest a larger audience in what had previously been a niche product.

[dynaman200]

> when people gets used to new UI, and some features are polished (UI shortcuts, pathfinding & tacAI) & bugs solved, gradually people will move towards RT

I never will, one of my favorite parts of CM is watching the replays from different vantage points, RT holds no interest for me at all.

[Rod]

It sure does seem like our patron saint of WEGO has somewhat gone over to the dark side. I've tried to follow I really have and I can actually see myself playing that way (solo) if some sort of VCR function was added where maybe the last 10 or 20 seconds of action could always be replayed. When I hear that boom off to my left I could then go investigate.

KNac,

On your first point I have friends who are only casual gamers and when they occasionally want to do battle I don't think they would appreciate my command of keyboard having a profound effect on the outcome of the battle.

On the second point no matter how fast computers get there is still a greater limit on the number of units you can effectively control in RT. Maybe some day you can have multiple monitors covering multiple views and brainwave detectors to issue orders. Would be cool but sounds exhausting. My personal preference is battles on a slightly grander scale so for me that limits RT appeal for for the time being.

[MD82]

What some game developer needs to do is enable multiplayer control of subordinate units in the RT mode. That would model the command structure of a real military organization.

I can see being a Captain, in charge of a platoon of M1 tanks. I would get my operational briefing from the Colonel, in command of the combined arms team. All the subordinate commanders would be linked by voice and map displays.

That way we could have large, real time battles without being overwhelmed by the number of forces we must monitor.

[KNac]

That would be nicem but if it's difficult to find people to play RT over TCP/IP, let's not talk about that sort of coop. Anyway, that would be really cool.

[moneymaxx]

Originally posted by dynaman200:

I never will, one of my favorite parts of CM is watching the replays from different vantage points, RT holds no interest for me at all.

So it seems that the only thing that is missing at this moment is a replay function for the last let's say 90 seconds in RT, since RT is essentially WEGO with variable time-limit. Just pause to give new orders.

[MarkEzra]

Originally posted by moneymaxx:

QUOTE]So it seems that the only thing that is missing at this moment is a replay function for the last let's say 90 seconds in RT, since RT is essentially WEGO with variable time-limit. Just pause to give new orders. [/QB]

[JasonC]

The real reason they went real time is the pentagon customer demanded it. My guess...

[Krinks]

Originally posted by MarkEzra:

WEGO front loads my orders and an intuitive AI responds to how stupid that order really was. And then I get to watch a replay from all angles of my gross military incompetence.

This is what I would like to see. Someone in another thread pointed out that by frontloading the results, this could increase the framerate, since it's pre-defining the outcome using the ballistics, etc in the engine. That's different since now, not only is it determining the outcome, but it's running graphics at the same time. All of this takes processor time, and slows things down.

I'd prefer to have it determine the outcome first, video later.

RT allows me to be stupid for the full length of the game and offers the blessing of no replay. Let's just keep it that way [/QB]

LOL

Interesting take on preferring RT My orders tend to be just as bad, but at least I like the luxury of being able to analyze and see what happened in detail.

It would be nice (preferably eventually for CMSF), but for the next game to have the option. You can play RT, in which case, things are what they are now. But if you want WEGO, then have the game predefine the outcome and just play it. Forget the rendering at the same time.

[shafty]

I think that WEGO is prefered by many as it becomes a thinking game. Not that you don't have to think in RT but with WEGO you win based on your ability as a tactician and stratagist (is there such a word?) not on the speed you can whip around the map and click you mouse/hotkeys hoping you can get to your units on-time with the correct 'click'. If you like to spend a rainy Sunday (or sunny Tuesday for that matter) afternoon poring over what is essentially a delux game of chess (relishing all the action up close at all angles) then the one you prefer is obvious.

[KAding]

Originally posted by KNac:

That would be nicem but if it's difficult to find people to play RT over TCP/IP, let's not talk about that sort of coop. Anyway, that would be really cool.

It's only difficult because there is no lobby where you can meet people for MP.

[Pandur]

I think that WEGO is prefered by many as it becomes a thinking game.

one of many good reasons "for me" to play WEGO, next to the replay wich lets me analyze success and failure.

[MarkEzra]

Originally posted by Krinks:

This is what I would like to see. Someone in another thread pointed out that by frontloading the results, this could increase the framerate, since it's pre-defining the outcome using the ballistics, etc in the engine. That's different since now, not only is it determining the outcome, but it's running graphics at the same time. All of this takes processor time, and slows things down.

I'd prefer to have it determine the outcome first, video later.

I guess you are right about the new engine activity.

QUOTE]LOL

Interesting take on preferring RT My orders tend to be just as bad, but at least I like the luxury of being able to analyze and see what happened in detail.

Actually I've been only playing WEGO...my preferred method of Wargaming...Apparently I like to beat and berate myself.

[Pandur]

I'd prefer to have it determine the outcome first, video later.

well i had 1/4 to 1/2 baon vs 1/4 to 1/2 baon test for 3 rounds.

the RT minute ingame was sluggish as hell...i couldnt see a thing through constantly refreshing terrain and unit lods, looked toatly weird. i turned the camera around and looke out over the mapedge and let the compute compute without looking at the scene...and what a wonder, the replay worked reasonable well as everything is allready done.

as that point iam happy again about WEGO with replay. especially with such a demanding engine.

[wunwinglow]

I really like the RT aspect, but the slow mouse cursor response is killing it for me; that and having to work through several menus to get to a command. And having several key commands relating to different orders. But most of all, it is making me realize it is time to get a new PC!! So it isn't all bad news.....

Tim

[track]

I like real time for small battles, but larger ones usually turn into frenzied click fests - something I hate in RT-gaming as general.

Re-play is also sorely missed. Give commands and see how things take twists that you could not foresee - one of the great ascpects of the earlier series.

[Gunney]

Originally posted by track:

I like real time for small battles, but larger ones usually turn into frenzied click fests - something I hate in RT-gaming as general.

That is why I love that they are putting in the pause feature in elite mode. While pausing is not realistic but neither is commanding a whole bunch of forces at the same time.

[kipanderson]

Hi,

RT is fine… as long as it is not a fundamental problem for unit behaviour. That is for TacAI/pathfinding/LOS/LOF and so on. If the problems we are seeing are just bugs that Charles will crack in time, no problem.

I enjoy pause-able RT… works very well. But as you can see I have my concerns because I too always remembered the above post from Steve.

All good fun,

All the best,

Kip.

[Lindan]

What was your gaming equipment like in 1999?

I think I was on a 800Mhz CPU and 256MB Ram. Had a Geforce 2 MX for graphics. No wonder RT was out of the question.

[Speedy]

I would suggest that RT is more of a thinking game than WEGO. To play RT well you have to plan a lot further ahead as well as develop multiple contingencies for possible enemy action (then modify them on the fly to specific actions of the enemy) in order to respond in a timely matter to developments on battlefield.

Whereas in WEGO when the enemy conducts an action you have an unlimited time to think up your response to it, so therefore you only have to think about and respond to what the enemy actually does as opposed to the various things they might do.