Charlie901 Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 Will we get the ability to insert troops via Blackhawks! If so will the Blackhawks be visible during insertion and be targetable for OPFOR? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogface Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 The short answer is nope. The long answer is do a search. IIRC that is what the button is for. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaguarUSF Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 The long and short answers are both nope. There are no helicopters in the game. For more information (including this tidbit), please peruse my disturbingly informative preview: http://jaguarusf.blogspot.com/2007/05/combat-mission-shock-force-preview.html 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 Another Chinook was shot down just yesterday. Pretty frickin' awful. In the game you could imagine every Red side gun sending a hail of mg fire in the direction of any on-screen helicopter. Think of how vulnerable a truck is on a CMx1 map. Then mentally hang that truck a hundred m over the map for all to see. Even a big map would be too small to avoid a copter being peppered thoroughly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarquelne Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 Off topic question: Have 'copters - even full-on combat models like the Apache - turned out to be more vulnerable than expected? Or are the present conflicts just not what they were designed for? (Both? Something else - not used properly?) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misereor Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 Originally posted by Tarquelne: Off topic question: Have 'copters - even full-on combat models like the Apache - turned out to be more vulnerable than expected?It's pretty obvious that they have been forced into a kind of warfare that they weren't designed for. An attack helicopter like the Apache is a standoff weapon, and I can imagine that supressing insurgents don't always allow it to fight the kind of combat it's supposed to. As for losses being unexpectedly high, I actually don't think so. I think a calculated risk is being taken with them. Some of the military guys who hang around here are probably able to give a more comprehensive analysis... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 I think we're working with 'institutional memory' here. Same goes for armor. If there's a big enough gap between major conflicts you usually find the lethality of the situation will be underestimated. Remember all those rush NATO armor upgrades needed for Bosnia? By the end of the Vietnam war Hueys were being shot up in large numbers, but that was 35 years ago and memories fade. It's commonly thought that recent Iraq experience may have been the final nail in the coffin for the Commanche copter program after 20 years of development! The problem Apache's been having in Iraq is that in a city the size of Baghdad no matter how far it stands-off its still going to be hovering over 'someone's' neighborhood. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Steiner Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 Isn't one of the problems that the enemy has learned how to destroy a helicopter more effectively than was the case before. Didn't Al Quida develop short-fused RPG-7s designed to detonate near a helicopter's tail rotor? I think Al Quida operatives exported this technique to Somalia in the early 90s, resulting in the downing of two black-hawks over Mogadishu in 1993. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 I believe some 5000 Hueys were lost in combat during the Vietnam War. The RPG was first noted as a threat to helicopters and even low flying light aircraft (FACs in 0-2 Bird Dogs) back then, too. ISTR this was late in the war, around the time when the SA-7 appeared. The RPG warhead will detonate after so many seconds once fired. AQ may've modded fuzes on newer model RPG warheads, but I fail to see the logic of attacking the much smaller tail rotor when they've got the entire main rotor disk as a target, in the center of which is the helicopter's fuselage. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie901 Posted May 31, 2007 Author Share Posted May 31, 2007 Originally posted by JaguarUSF: The long and short answers are both nope. There are no helicopters in the game. For more information (including this tidbit), please peruse my disturbingly informative preview: http://jaguarusf.blogspot.com/2007/05/combat-mission-shock-force-preview.html OUCH...!!! The WEGO system means you have to "Playback" the action every time...??? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie901 Posted May 31, 2007 Author Share Posted May 31, 2007 Originally posted by Charlie901: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JaguarUSF: The long and short answers are both nope. There are no helicopters in the game. For more information (including this tidbit), please peruse my disturbingly informative preview: http://jaguarusf.blogspot.com/2007/05/combat-mission-shock-force-preview.html OUCH...!!! The New SF WEGO system means you have to "Playback" the action every time...??? </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaguarUSF Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 It goes to playback but you can press the next turn and skip past it once it starts. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 "I believe some 5000 Hueys were lost in combat during the Vietnam War." There's a harrowing account in the book "Achilles in Vietnam" where an RPG hits a Huey head on, gets halfway through the plexiglass winsdscreen but fails to detonate. The pilot didn't realize that the RPG warhead has a self-descruct mechanism. The warhead flamed (as opposed to expolded) and according to the pilot 'melted' the copilot sitting next to him. The pilot had nightmares over the incident for decades afterward. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie901 Posted June 1, 2007 Author Share Posted June 1, 2007 Originally posted by MikeyD: "I believe some 5000 Hueys were lost in combat during the Vietnam War." There's a harrowing account in the book "Achilles in Vietnam" where an RPG hits a Huey head on, gets halfway through the plexiglass winsdscreen but fails to detonate. The pilot didn't realize that the RPG warhead has a self-descruct mechanism. The warhead flamed (as opposed to expolded) and according to the pilot 'melted' the copilot sitting next to him. The pilot had nightmares over the incident for decades afterward. This is exactly why we need Helo's in this game...to test these Insurgent RPG Theories!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SD Smack Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 So to say that this is a problem of short term memory in my mind is correct. For example: during Operation Lam Son 719 in Vietnam/Laos the US flew over 300,000 hours in a 45-50 day period. The operation lasted from February to March. In that time 197 helicopters were shot down. In Iraq this year alone there have been approximately 12 helicopters that have been shot down or had "hard landings". Quite a small number considering the use these helicopters are getting. Air Assault is still a viable option in warfare today, but the idea sending UH-60s or CH-47s in by themselves is completely absurd. Any air assault would be accompanied by not only AH-64 gunships but also OH-58D/ARH-70s providing a screening force, plus CAS, plus artillery. The ideas being to suppress the enemy until the troops are on the ground and helos out of the area. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiny_tanker Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 Originally posted by SD Smack: Air Assault is still a viable option in warfare today, but the idea sending UH-60s or CH-47s in by themselves is completely absurd. Any air assault would be accompanied by not only AH-64 gunships but also OH-58D/ARH-70s providing a screening force, plus CAS, plus artillery. The ideas being to suppress the enemy until the troops are on the ground and helos out of the area. Steve Your absolutely right, and its standard practice to have Gunships, CAS and ISR support for an Air Assault. Its the the other 99% of the time when they are just flying the same route over and over again that they get hit. I'll have to do some digging to be sure but if I remember right 8 to 10 of those downed helos weren't doing an air assault. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 Are helos really that vulnerable or is the fact that every loss is in the news inflating that perception? During an air assault, quick in, quick out, the birds wouldn't be as vulnerable unless they stumble on an ambush. It is when they get stuck moving over a predictable route that they are vulnerable. With the RPGs the only mod that I believe they made to them in Somalia was changing the angle of the exhaust pipe to point the backblast at a 45 degree angle. This let the Somalis point it into the air without worrying about the back-blast taking them out. The birds that were downed were all direct hits. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 Originally posted by Misereor: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tarquelne: Off topic question: Have 'copters - even full-on combat models like the Apache - turned out to be more vulnerable than expected?It's pretty obvious that they have been forced into a kind of warfare that they weren't designed for. An attack helicopter like the Apache is a standoff weapon, and I can imagine that supressing insurgents don't always allow it to fight the kind of combat it's supposed to.</font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 Okay okay - I think we can agree that helicopters are as useful as they've ever been at doing what they do on the battlefield. BUT the Army mindset is a loooong way from the willingness to accept 1967-scale loss/casualty rates anymore. A significant problem is sheer attrition. Our industrial base used to churn out replacement Hueys like Chevrolets. Now if a Chinook goes down in combat it may be ten years (if ever) before a replacement enters the inventory. Under those constraints you tend to start using your assets differently, trying to conserve them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acrashb Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq): With the RPGs the only mod that I believe they made to them in Somalia According to the book "Blackhawk Down" the Somalis dug pits, lay on their backs with the exhaust end of the RPG in the pit and waited for the chopper to come overhead. No 45-degree deflectors. I would think that a deflector would create vicious and dangerous torque on the launcher. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 The modified exhaust is mentioned in Blackhawk Down. I'll find the page tomorrow. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SD Smack Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 Hey Tiny_Tanker you have a great point there. The problem is that the airspace has to be deconflicted so routes inevitably become the norm. Plus the front line is not moving so helicopters have to fly from the same bases to the same hot spots and with that comes some unfortunate predictability. Originally posted by MikeyD: It's commonly thought that recent Iraq experience may have been the final nail in the coffin for the Commanche copter program after 20 years of development! yup MikeyD its dead! Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 Originally posted by acrashb: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq): With the RPGs the only mod that I believe they made to them in Somalia According to the book "Blackhawk Down" the Somalis dug pits, lay on their backs with the exhaust end of the RPG in the pit and waited for the chopper to come overhead. No 45-degree deflectors. I would think that a deflector would create vicious and dangerous torque on the launcher. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pad152 Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 I like the way air power is portrayed in TOW, I wish BattleFront would do something simlar in CM2 games. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiny_tanker Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 Originally posted by SD Smack: Hey Tiny_Tanker you have a great point there. The problem is that the airspace has to be deconflicted so routes inevitably become the norm. Plus the front line is not moving so helicopters have to fly from the same bases to the same hot spots and with that comes some unfortunate predictability. Steve Trust me I know allll about the airspace in Iraq, deal with it every day as a matter of fact. Not just deconflicting for aircraft but also artillery and the like. I know the procedure for helo routes have changed over the course of the war, to attempt to make them more "random", if you will, and it can never be random enough. There has been a downward trend in loses in the past years. Correct me if I'm wrong but haven't most losses been people doing dangerous things with Chinooks in Afghanistan? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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