UH-60 troop insertions.....???

[Charlie901]

Will we get the ability to insert troops via Blackhawks!

If so will the Blackhawks be visible during insertion and be targetable for OPFOR?

[Dogface]

The short answer is nope.

The long answer is do a search. IIRC that is what the button is for.

[JaguarUSF]

The long and short answers are both nope. There are no helicopters in the game. For more information (including this tidbit), please peruse my disturbingly informative preview:

http://jaguarusf.blogspot.com/2007/05/combat-mission-shock-force-preview.html

[MikeyD]

Another Chinook was shot down just yesterday. Pretty frickin' awful. In the game you could imagine every Red side gun sending a hail of mg fire in the direction of any on-screen helicopter. Think of how vulnerable a truck is on a CMx1 map. Then mentally hang that truck a hundred m over the map for all to see. Even a big map would be too small to avoid a copter being peppered thoroughly.

[Tarquelne]

Off topic question:

Have 'copters - even full-on combat models like the Apache - turned out to be more vulnerable than expected?

Or are the present conflicts just not what they were designed for? (Both? Something else - not used properly?)

[Misereor]

Originally posted by Tarquelne:

Off topic question:

Have 'copters - even full-on combat models like the Apache - turned out to be more vulnerable than expected?

It's pretty obvious that they have been forced into a kind of warfare that they weren't designed for. An attack helicopter like the Apache is a standoff weapon, and I can imagine that supressing insurgents don't always allow it to fight the kind of combat it's supposed to.

As for losses being unexpectedly high, I actually don't think so. I think a calculated risk is being taken with them.

Some of the military guys who hang around here are probably able to give a more comprehensive analysis...

[MikeyD]

I think we're working with 'institutional memory' here. Same goes for armor. If there's a big enough gap between major conflicts you usually find the lethality of the situation will be underestimated. Remember all those rush NATO armor upgrades needed for Bosnia? By the end of the Vietnam war Hueys were being shot up in large numbers, but that was 35 years ago and memories fade. It's commonly thought that recent Iraq experience may have been the final nail in the coffin for the Commanche copter program after 20 years of development!

The problem Apache's been having in Iraq is that in a city the size of Baghdad no matter how far it stands-off its still going to be hovering over 'someone's' neighborhood.

[Cpl Steiner]

Isn't one of the problems that the enemy has learned how to destroy a helicopter more effectively than was the case before. Didn't Al Quida develop short-fused RPG-7s designed to detonate near a helicopter's tail rotor? I think Al Quida operatives exported this technique to Somalia in the early 90s, resulting in the downing of two black-hawks over Mogadishu in 1993.

[John Kettler]

I believe some 5000 Hueys were lost in combat during the Vietnam War. The RPG was first noted as a threat to helicopters and even low flying light aircraft (FACs in 0-2 Bird Dogs) back then, too.

ISTR this was late in the war, around the time when the SA-7 appeared. The RPG warhead will detonate after so many seconds once fired. AQ may've modded fuzes on newer model RPG warheads, but I fail to see

the logic of attacking the much smaller tail rotor

when they've got the entire main rotor disk as a target, in the center of which is the helicopter's fuselage.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Charlie901]

Originally posted by JaguarUSF:

The long and short answers are both nope. There are no helicopters in the game. For more information (including this tidbit), please peruse my disturbingly informative preview:

http://jaguarusf.blogspot.com/2007/05/combat-mission-shock-force-preview.html

OUCH...!!!

The WEGO system means you have to "Playback" the action every time...???

[Charlie901]

Originally posted by Charlie901:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JaguarUSF:

The long and short answers are both nope. There are no helicopters in the game. For more information (including this tidbit), please peruse my disturbingly informative preview:

http://jaguarusf.blogspot.com/2007/05/combat-mission-shock-force-preview.html

OUCH...!!!

The New SF WEGO system means you have to "Playback" the action every time...??? </font>

[JaguarUSF]

It goes to playback but you can press the next turn and skip past it once it starts.

[MikeyD]

"I believe some 5000 Hueys were lost in combat during the Vietnam War."

There's a harrowing account in the book "Achilles in Vietnam" where an RPG hits a Huey head on, gets halfway through the plexiglass winsdscreen but fails to detonate. The pilot didn't realize that the RPG warhead has a self-descruct mechanism. The warhead flamed (as opposed to expolded) and according to the pilot 'melted' the copilot sitting next to him. The pilot had nightmares over the incident for decades afterward.

[Charlie901]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

"I believe some 5000 Hueys were lost in combat during the Vietnam War."

There's a harrowing account in the book "Achilles in Vietnam" where an RPG hits a Huey head on, gets halfway through the plexiglass winsdscreen but fails to detonate. The pilot didn't realize that the RPG warhead has a self-descruct mechanism. The warhead flamed (as opposed to expolded) and according to the pilot 'melted' the copilot sitting next to him. The pilot had nightmares over the incident for decades afterward.

This is exactly why we need Helo's in this game...to test these Insurgent RPG Theories!!!

[SD Smack]

So to say that this is a problem of short term memory in my mind is correct. For example: during Operation Lam Son 719 in Vietnam/Laos the US flew over 300,000 hours in a 45-50 day period. The operation lasted from February to March. In that time 197 helicopters were shot down.

In Iraq this year alone there have been approximately 12 helicopters that have been shot down or had "hard landings". Quite a small number considering the use these helicopters are getting.

Air Assault is still a viable option in warfare today, but the idea sending UH-60s or CH-47s in by themselves is completely absurd. Any air assault would be accompanied by not only AH-64 gunships but also OH-58D/ARH-70s providing a screening force, plus CAS, plus artillery. The ideas being to suppress the enemy until the troops are on the ground and helos out of the area.

Steve

[tiny_tanker]

Originally posted by SD Smack:

Air Assault is still a viable option in warfare today, but the idea sending UH-60s or CH-47s in by themselves is completely absurd. Any air assault would be accompanied by not only AH-64 gunships but also OH-58D/ARH-70s providing a screening force, plus CAS, plus artillery. The ideas being to suppress the enemy until the troops are on the ground and helos out of the area.

Steve

Your absolutely right, and its standard practice to have Gunships, CAS and ISR support for an Air Assault. Its the the other 99% of the time when they are just flying the same route over and over again that they get hit. I'll have to do some digging to be sure but if I remember right 8 to 10 of those downed helos weren't doing an air assault.

[SgtMuhammed]

Are helos really that vulnerable or is the fact that every loss is in the news inflating that perception?

During an air assault, quick in, quick out, the birds wouldn't be as vulnerable unless they stumble on an ambush. It is when they get stuck moving over a predictable route that they are vulnerable.

With the RPGs the only mod that I believe they made to them in Somalia was changing the angle of the exhaust pipe to point the backblast at a 45 degree angle. This let the Somalis point it into the air without worrying about the back-blast taking them out. The birds that were downed were all direct hits.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Misereor:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tarquelne:

Off topic question:

Have 'copters - even full-on combat models like the Apache - turned out to be more vulnerable than expected?

It's pretty obvious that they have been forced into a kind of warfare that they weren't designed for. An attack helicopter like the Apache is a standoff weapon, and I can imagine that supressing insurgents don't always allow it to fight the kind of combat it's supposed to.</font>

[MikeyD]

Okay okay - I think we can agree that helicopters are as useful as they've ever been at doing what they do on the battlefield. BUT the Army mindset is a loooong way from the willingness to accept 1967-scale loss/casualty rates anymore. A significant problem is sheer attrition. Our industrial base used to churn out replacement Hueys like Chevrolets. Now if a Chinook goes down in combat it may be ten years (if ever) before a replacement enters the inventory. Under those constraints you tend to start using your assets differently, trying to conserve them.

[acrashb]

Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq):

With the RPGs the only mod that I believe they made to them in Somalia

According to the book "Blackhawk Down" the Somalis dug pits, lay on their backs with the exhaust end of the RPG in the pit and waited for the chopper to come overhead. No 45-degree deflectors. I would think that a deflector would create vicious and dangerous torque on the launcher.

[SgtMuhammed]

The modified exhaust is mentioned in Blackhawk Down. I'll find the page tomorrow.

[SD Smack]

Hey Tiny_Tanker you have a great point there. The problem is that the airspace has to be deconflicted so routes inevitably become the norm. Plus the front line is not moving so helicopters have to fly from the same bases to the same hot spots and with that comes some unfortunate predictability.

Originally posted by MikeyD:

It's commonly thought that recent Iraq experience may have been the final nail in the coffin for the Commanche copter program after 20 years of development!

yup MikeyD its dead!

Steve

[SgtMuhammed]

Originally posted by acrashb:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq):

With the RPGs the only mod that I believe they made to them in Somalia

According to the book "Blackhawk Down" the Somalis dug pits, lay on their backs with the exhaust end of the RPG in the pit and waited for the chopper to come overhead. No 45-degree deflectors. I would think that a deflector would create vicious and dangerous torque on the launcher. </font>

[pad152]

I like the way air power is portrayed in TOW, I wish BattleFront would do something simlar in CM2 games.

[tiny_tanker]

Originally posted by SD Smack:

Hey Tiny_Tanker you have a great point there. The problem is that the airspace has to be deconflicted so routes inevitably become the norm. Plus the front line is not moving so helicopters have to fly from the same bases to the same hot spots and with that comes some unfortunate predictability.

Steve

Trust me I know allll about the airspace in Iraq, deal with it every day as a matter of fact. Not just deconflicting for aircraft but also artillery and the like. I know the procedure for helo routes have changed over the course of the war, to attempt to make them more "random", if you will, and it can never be random enough. There has been a downward trend in loses in the past years. Correct me if I'm wrong but haven't most losses been people doing dangerous things with Chinooks in Afghanistan?