The "wow" factor

[BloodyBucket]

I can still recall the first time I laid eyes on the CMBO demo, grappling with the unfamiliar interface and trying to understand all the funny colored lines. Then I pushed the "go" button, and in short order it dawned on me that this was no ordinary game. And the more it sunk in, the more excited I got. The "wow" factor clicked in, and in a big way.

It wasn't the graphics, the interface or the any one detail. The scale, subject matter and the obvious philosophy that this game was serious in trying to be a simulation just blew me away. It was like tactical gamer's nirvana.

Someone had designed the game that I had always thought that computers were created to deliver, the Holy Grail of tactical games that an old SPI/AH tactical board gamer had always dreamed of when computers first started to become gaming tools.

Now CMx2 is on the horizon, and I'm confident that it will be a great game. What I'm less certain of is the "wow" factor.

Will some of the bloom be off the rose merely because we have been spoiled by CM? Is there anything that CMx2 could offer that would simply knock your socks off, or should we be content with the fact that evolutionary has replaced revolutionary merely because there can't be another first experience like that first CM game?

[stoat]

Have faith.

[Paul AU]

I quite agree that the wow-factor was huge, (and somewhat continuing). But, I'm not expecting CMx2 to wow-me x2.

I'd be more than "content" if CMx2 was "merely" an improved CMx1. Because CMx1 is so good.

[Mord]

I've been getting that wow feeling ever since I heard about the 1:1 ratio. Everything I've heard has wowed me. I think it will be as fun and exciting as CMBO was.

I was however really bummed when I first read that the scope was decreased so drasticly though. One of the things I loved most about CM and it's sequels was all the vehicles and troop types. I can remember just lining up at all the armor and soldiers from each nation in the editor and studying them for hours on end. For me it was especially cool because I wasn't as WWII savy as most on here.

But now that I've wrapped my mind around the smaller scale and thought about all of what WILL be in the game my excitement is back. I trust these guys not to screw it up and am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Because once I see all those little 1:1 bastards duking it out in three story buildings on maps that are 8x8 tiled man it's gonna ROCK!

Mord.

[ August 27, 2005, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: Mord ]

[Panzer_M]

a sdkfz. 251/17 graphic will be enough to wow me.

I am worried though.

Microsoft/Avalon hill ruined CloseCombat III when you compare it to CloseCombat II, it just want not the same, and then SSI got it and really tried to fix it, but never got it right.

CloseCombat I was groundbreaking, CC2 was a masterpiece...nothing comes close, unless you go to the Gold Sword Juno mod...even then the campaign lacks compared to CC2.

[Battlefront.com]

The "wow" thing is important to us too. We were blown away with how much "wow" you guys felt was in CMBO. We knew there was some, but we underestimated it in a big way. And we liked that

In many ways CMx2's game experience will be so different from CMx1 that the potential to wow you again is certainly there. The graphical appearance will be a pretty big shock to you all, but that isn't what we are counting on for the big punch. It will be, just like CMx1, the tying together of all the many aspects of warfare into a tight, well focused, and well balanced game experience. So many things that were not possible with CMx1 are now possible. What's more, unlike CMx1 we can bounce around from setting to setting so that we can deliver more stuff to you in a shorter space of time. That has a wow factor of its own.

One big difference between CMx1 vs. CMx2 when compared to V4V, Close Combat, Steel Panthers, and various Talonsoft products is this... those other games are more akin to CMBO vs. CMBB vs. CMAK. They didn't really change the core of the game from release to release. CMx2 is ground up product that is only influenced by CMx1, and that is a significant point to keep in mind.

So... am I promising CMx2 will wow you the same way CMBO did? No, but we honestly feel that it just might wind up doing it

Steve

[ August 27, 2005, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ]

[PAEZ]

Well

Steve

You had me at

3D trenches and fox holes,

Multiple floors on Buildings.Different entries and windows

1:1

new and updated graphics not that it matters

keeping realism

New 8 x 8 tiles and 1 m mesh

and there is lots more to be coded

ok let me say it WOW

you guys have always done a great job "brown nosing a bit"

And to think that when I saw CMBO ALPHA I thought that was the best I ever played

just let me know when to get it.

keep up the good work

[Cull]

I've been trying not to get completely giddy (and therefore over-hype myself) for CMx2, but I can't shake the feeling that I'm going to be blown away. Again.

I mean, there is no question that the guys are unwaivering on the realism and simulation aspect. Throw a massive improvement on the graphics and detail and such on top of that....I just...I.....I can't take it anymore.

Seriously though, I'm pretty sure I'm going to crap my pants at the new level of awesome this is going to be.

As long as I can manage to keep downplaying like this anyway....

Oh yes, I will be planning a few days of vacation time when a release date is finally announced.

[Bartokomus]

LOL; i can confess for both BO and BB i took the next day off.

[Kilroy Lurking]

Hi Steve!

Don't worry - the WOW will be when I see it up and running on my Mac - Or PC if by then I've crossed over to the Dark side

David

[Paul AU]

>> CMx2 is ground up product that is only

>> influenced by CMx1,

"Only influenced". Gee. And all I really wanted was an improved CMx1.

No matter how good or different CMx2 will be... CMx1 deserves a "+" version.

"Civilisation II" was "merely" an improved Civ, and Civ III, ditto. Each was well worth doing. Like Steel Panthers II was worth doing. Same program, with many of the niggly-bits perfected. Many user requests, incorportated?

So, CMx2 is not really going to be a CMx2?

More of a XXx1?

[Kwazydog]

Paul, by your defination it sounds like the last in the CMx1 series, CMAK, is the CMx2 you were after. In all honesty the first engine has been pushed to its limits...it was time for us to take the lessons learnt there and move onto something new and improved.

Dan

[Sergei]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

Paul, by your defination it sounds like the last in the CMx1 series, CMAK, is the CMx2 you were after. In all honesty the first engine has been pushed to its limits...it was time for us to take the lessons learnt there and move onto something new and improved.

Dan

Not really. I think what he asks for is a sorta perfected 'redo' of the original series but using the wealth of hindsight that you have gained during these years. So, better graphics, better AI, no borg spotting, multimultiplayer etc. but still being able to model battles of the same scale.

Think of it this way: if Michael Jackson decided to move on from pop and start singing country music, some of her fans would surely follow. But some of the fans would not be so enthusiastic about the change, because for them, pop music is the thing, not Michael Jackson himself, and even if they'd like Jacko's new music, they'd be missing new pop songs from him. Even if, from Jacko's perspective, it was logical that he had to move on to the next level.

[Tero]

Originally posted by Sergei:

Not really. I think what he asks for is a sorta perfected 'redo' of the original series but using the wealth of hindsight that you have gained during these years. So, better graphics, better AI, no borg spotting, multimultiplayer etc. but still being able to model battles of the same scale.

Think of it this way: if Michael Jackson decided to move on from pop and start singing country music, some of her fans would surely follow. But some of the fans would not be so enthusiastic about the change, because for them, pop music is the thing, not Michael Jackson himself, and even if they'd like Jacko's new music, they'd be missing new pop songs from him. Even if, from Jacko's perspective, it was logical that he had to move on to the next level.

Hear, hear.

There has been so many, TOO many, FPS games lately which focus on the heroic US servicemen in various Western European WWII settings. And it is getting old and wearing thin even if you throw in the occasional Hero of the Soviet Union and the occasional British commando.

The thing is the first game was superb and really good. After umptheenth redo with yet a new twist (but still a rehash of the original idea) who bothers to buy it at full retail price when you can get it cheap in a couple of months ? If you are interested that is.

With the new engine BFC will no doubt exceed all our expectations. But these expectations are based on the entire family of CM games. With them the clientel has been used to do combat in various settings and if the new engine is heralded with the rehash of CMBO then the expectations will not be met in full.

And ceterum censeo PBEM nix delendam esse !

[Kwazydog]

Sergie, I see what you mean and I think that is pretty much what I was thinking Paul was after. Essentially though the product described really isnt all that much different to where the last CM series finished off...its the same game with the few remaining rough edges rounded off.

As the engine was to be rebuilt from the ground up we didnt want to simply rewrite the origional game with a few new features added in...we wanted to take it much further exploring features which could have even been considered when coding began on the origional series.

Dan

[ August 29, 2005, 04:30 AM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[Battlefront.com]

Dan's correct. The code used for CMx1 was simply unsuitable for further development. That meant rewriting the entire game engine no matter what. So if we're going to go through all that effort, why not improve upon things instead of making them prettier with a few annoyances fixed? Seems like a terrible waste of time and rather boring from a development standpoint. Plus, for every one of you guys that says "I really just want CMx1 redone as it was" there are bound to be more people tht would say "my God, all they did was rehash the old stuff? What a ripoff!". Customers are so kind sometimes

Steve

[Kong]

Originally posted by BloodyBucket:

I can still recall the first time I laid eyes on the CMBO demo, grappling with the unfamiliar interface and trying to understand all the funny colored lines. Then I pushed the "go" button, and in short order it dawned on me that this was no ordinary game. And the more it sunk in, the more excited I got. The "wow" factor clicked in, and in a big way.

I must admit it took me a bit longer. I found CMBO on a game download site. It was WWII and strategy so I was interested. I installed and fired it up with ZERO expectations of anything. I tried "Chance Encounter" first as the Americans (of course!) and got my arse handed to me. This was in June/July of 2000, in September I fired it up again and I got it... I was hooked.

The "wow" factor happened repeatedly for me. First time I used large artillery, first time I used a HQ spotter to take out a HT with onboard arty. First time I took out a tank with a AT unit, or with a ATG.

Very, very, very rarely does a game with high expectations deliver... I expect CMx2 to do so. I credit this to the brilliance of Mr. Moylan.

Since this is a full rewrite of the engine how would you guys compare CMx1 to CMx2 versus other well known titles. By this I mean on the order of magnitude of difference. The example that comes off the top of my head is like Quake 2 vs Quake III or Simcity 3000 vs Simcity 4 or Empire Earth vs Empire Earth 2.

[Salkin]

You can't please all the people all the time Steve.

Or more correctly :

You can't please all the people , period !

But we still have nothing but love for the Battlefront crew and you know it !

//Salkin

#2 Fanboy after Tom

[Pvt. Ryan]

Originally posted by Kong:

The "wow" factor happened repeatedly for me. First time I used large artillery, first time I used a HQ spotter to take out a HT with onboard arty. First time I took out a tank with a AT unit, or with a ATG.

That reminds me of my first CM "wow" experience. I remember watching at ground leves as my troopies easily advanced against the enemy. Then the sky suddenly opened up and what seemed to be buckets of hell started raining on my men. The gound shook and large clumps of earth erupted all around. When it was over most my men were gone and I was in awe.

I don't know if anything will wow me as much as the first time in true 3D combat, but I'm sure BFC will do their best.

[Brent Pollock]

...so...more of a scenario along the lines of scrapping the whole SL/CoI/CoD/GI mish-mash in favour of redoing the whole thing to generate ASL...oh man - it's gonna be great!

Along the lines of CMBO "wow" factor, I was mentioning this on the weekend to an ASL chum. I downloaded the CMBO demo, expecting yet another ho-hum, overhead view only click fest along the lines of CC3 or SP that left me feeling that computers still were not the way to play wargames. Egged on by some "come on, Dad" by my son, we opened up the meeting engagement and he watched me run through against the Germans.

Stage 1. Hmmm...good view changes.

Stage 2. Okay, the command system seems easy enough.

Stage 3. Hit GO...watch movie from level 1...cool, but so what...hit GO once or twice more and then...KABOOM...HOLY CRAP...WHAT HIT THAT SHERMAN...AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

Stage 4. Never looked back since

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Dan's correct. The code used for CMx1 was simply unsuitable for further development. That meant rewriting the entire game engine no matter what. So if we're going to go through all that effort, why not improve upon things instead of making them prettier with a few annoyances fixed? Seems like a terrible waste of time and rather boring from a development standpoint. Plus, for every one of you guys that says "I really just want CMx1 redone as it was" there are bound to be more people tht would say "my God, all they did was rehash the old stuff? What a ripoff!". Customers are so kind sometimes

Steve

[LightningWar]

My WoW factor on CMBO came in Aug of 2000. I read about CMBO in some magazine and decided to download the demo. I play the Germans on some map with a hill and the allies are attacking.

I setup my 105s on top of the hill. They take aim at some infantry and I zoom in on the gun to see it fire. I hear the little germans saying something and fully expect the round to go off. But there was a longer than expected delay and all of a sudden "BOOOOM" both fire within a half second of each other and I jump out of my seat about 6 inches as I watch the shell arc across the map and hit some incomming infantry.

Right there I was hooked.

[Michael Dorosh]

Wow factor - we all have our stories, and it is still fun to read them years after the fact.

I downloaded the demo after some guy came to www.canadiansoldiers.com (before I even had my own domain name) and raved about a new game that let you play as "Canadians." I looked at the demo, couldn't figure out why the tanks wouldn't move when I gave them orders, and had trouble with the camera controls. I hit GO but because no orders were given, I couldn't figure out why no one was moving. Can't remember if I hated the damn birds chirping or not. I think I fooled around for five minutes or so and then deleted it from my hard drive.

Didn't try it again until a year later. Can't even remember why I gave it a second look. Chance Encounter made a much stronger impression on me. I almost wish I could remember more about my first experiences. I think the real draw was the oddball choice of including Canadians as seperate from British or American. One more point in favour of blanket coverage; I may never have considered CM were it not for that first game with Canadians in it.

So hopefully similar treatment will be given in future to "other" nationalities.

But oh yeah, my second run through of CMBO's demo hooked me. I think it was the camera shake in addition to the 3D world. I'd played Castle Wolfenstein and other stuff in 3D but never a strategy game, and one so close to Squad Leader and my high school pastimes. I hope the camera shake stays in.

[Tarkus]

Ok here's mine.

I was a regular at Track Link scale modeling site & newsgroup. At one point a guy posted about CM. Went on BTS' site, looked at the screenshots, but a very cursory examination left me unmoved. I distinctly remember a screenshot showing amerincan infantry and a Sherman tank with all those colorful lines on the ground... didn't quite understand. I left the site but I did not forgot completely about the game...

A few months later (I'd say six) I got a high speed connexion, and for some reason the very first idea I had to test it was to see if a CM demo was available. Got the Chance encounter and Valley of Trouble one...

And boy, from the very first time the 3D map loaded I was shocked and speechless and ordered the game the very same night. I was hooked soooo bad... I distinctly remember my first run on Chance Encouter, it ended with a messy knife fight on the left flank on the wooded hill. I called a good friend of mine, litteraly *ordering* him to get the demo... I also remember vividly my first of many Valley of Trouble run. I didn't quite figure out about the mortars and bunkers and artillery and...

Good God is it just me or that scenario was just perfect to discover the game and replay it to death only to learn a new thing on each run ? And people are surprised to discover I'm a fanboy. This was the one most powerful computer game wow I've ever felt. I don't think it can be bested, even though I'm pretty sure CMx2 will seriously kick a**. But I sure hope it does.

Cheers

[ August 30, 2005, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: Tarkus ]

[dalem]

I'd been reading the forum for a bit before the first demo came out. For me the first "wow" came when Steve posted a couple of mpegs of a couple of seconds of gameplay. I remember one that was essentially a long top zoom in on a moving German tank. King Tiger I believe it was.

There were others, but that "traveling shot" was the one I remember most. I knew they were onto something at that point and stopped whining to myself that "Computer ASL" was not going to happen.

Anybody still have those mpegs? I lost them a few PC transitions ago.

-dale

[Brent Pollock]

Yummmmmm...Valley of Trouble....the hook was driven even deeper into my cheek by two events:

1. dropping a smoke mission on the bunker, which led to a Sherman making it to the rear, blasting the door in.

2. when the [gulp] Panther showed up on the hill....calm down...clam down....think, man, think...sent a Sherman on a fast right hook...2 minutes later, the Panther flank is in sight...no response from the uberkitty...first shot..MISSES (AHHHHHHH)...but still no response...second shot...HITS!!!!!!!!!!

HA - try THAT in ASL!

[ September 01, 2005, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: Brent Pollock ]