How I learned to stop worrying and love CMSF

[thewood]

OK, I don't like CMSF as it is. In fact, I hate it almost as much Squad Assault in its many incarnations. People who know me know that is a bold statement.

But taking a step back, I ask myself why do I hate it. Is it the design? Is it the interface? Is it the state it was released in? Is it because its not CM1? Or maybe I am just old and pissed off at everything that is different.

The answer is yes to all of the above. If CMSF had come out in a perfect state, I probably would have loved it. Maybe even if it had come out in a near perfect state, I would have still loved it. There was no waffling on CMBO, I loved it the minute I saw it.

CMSF was like that for the first 5 minutes and then I realized it was very buggy, the concept was not well presented, UI was a little cludgy, gameplay was not documented well, and it was more limited in scope than I expected. That last word is key. Bugginess combined with expectations is what seemed to kill it for me. If either one of those things (bugginess or expectations) didn't exist, I would be all over CMSF like stink on crap.

So now I am taking that step back, lowering my expectations, and waiting for BFC to work out the bugs. Based on past performance, I believe BFC will get the bugs out or go down trying. That's assuming BFC has not changed its core philosophy of delivering well designed games and supporting them.

Yeah, paying to beta test a game rubs me the wrong way, but I have done it for companies that delivered me a lot less than the 7 years of enjoyment that BFC has. Yes, I am cutting BFC some slack. They deserve it.

I have stopped worrying and am just waiting for 1.04. Now if BFC could just get the damned Strykers to fire their...oh wait...inner peace, never mind.

edit - btw, I would normally get charged $185 by my therapist for that kind rant, so I can take that and invest it other BFC products. I feel good.

[KNac]

good post thewood.

while i don't COMPLETLY agree, I agree in part, and also understand your feels.

other should follow your enlighted path to the peacefull mindness. for their mental health at least...

[Dirtweasle]

Ah ha! You got it, but don't get it either, but are going to get it someday! Cheers!

Good post.

[Cpl Steiner]

Yeah, good points. My fear for BFC is that by the time the problems are all sorted out and the next modules and games are starting to roll out, many of the "new" customers they got to buy CM:SF will have moved away to greener pastures, happily playing "Call of Duty 4" on the XBOX 360 and lamenting how they wasted their money on that stupid "other" game. This is a great pity and BFC may rue the day they ever let CM:SF out the door in such a poor initial state.

[Guest]

I suppose I'm a "new" customer (I bought CMBO but nothing in between).

I actually bought CM:SF because of the era and setting, along with the fact that a company I respected was putting it out, and I *have* been playing other games (a couple, late at night when the kids are asleep, on my Xbox 360, no less), but I think you'll find that there are fewer schmoes among the new users than you might think, Steiner.

I would be willing to bet that most of us are grogs -- with the stick-to-it-iveness that that brings -- that just haven't been buying BFC products. I own more paper wargames than I own software development books, which is saying *quite* a bit (my copy of Knuth counting as three books, no less ). And computer wargames make up probably 60% of my software purchases and about 98% of my independent development efforts since 1986 or so... which *again* is saying quite a bit. I think most of BFC's "new" customers will be around for the long haul.

It's the old customers I think BFC would have to worry about if BFC worried about such things.

thewood, I'm glad you've made your inner peace with CM:SF. Just don't let those insightful posts fall by the wayside in the interests of peace-keeping.

[MikeyD]

relaaaaax.....

relaaaaaaaax....

unclench the jaw...

unclench your fists...

think peaceful thoughts...

clear your mind of all disquiet...

[thewood]

Its not my jaw or fists that are clenched...

[MarkEzra]

Originally posted by thewood:

Its not my jaw or fists that are clenched...

Well that limits the alternatives to: don't go to the Minneapolis airport until at least patch 1.04

[Meach]

I think I finally "got it". I had a 2 full companies of BMP carried infantry storm a US gunline and tried to micromanage it...was difficult.

Second attempt I told them where to go and let them get on with it. Much better results. The troops knew what to do better than I did when I tried to get to grass roots level. Meh....maybe I just plain suck at CM:SF.

[Bahger]

Interesting thread. For me, there is a simple test one can apply to all high-fidelity war games and tac-sims regardless of scale and it is this:

Can the player mount a realistic flanking maneuver, with effective suppression, good use of cover, coordinated ROE/movement/fire orders against realistic, adaptable enemy AI?

It's amazing how many sophisticated tactical games fail to meet this simple test:

- In ArmA squad AI is painfully inadequate and loses every rock, paper, scissors confrontation with razor-sharp enemy AI marksmanship and the interface does not allow for sufficient coordinated remote control of fire teams.

- In GRAW 2 you can pull it off but only in the limited areas where the game does not channel you down one path but instead provides tactical alternatives for an flanking assault. And the implementation of stealth/assault ROE is still not quite reliable.

- In CMSF the pathfinding and tacAI has been far too unpredictable for the player to be able to run a basic maneuver like this with any reasonable expectation of success; all too often the vehicles won't go where you want or they will attack the wrong threat, the dismounts will choose to enter a building from the side that is exposed to enemy fire rather than through a window on the other side, etc. and a very basic maneuver becomes a total mess through no fault of the player's tactics (Note: I have not yet had the chance to play 1.03).

The games which can handle this simple task beautifully are the Brothers in Arms series but that is because gameplay is basically built around this one maneuver, almost to the exclusion of anything else; progressing through the scenarios consists of a series of find, fix, fire and flank tactics.

Any game which does not have good enough tacAI to enable the player to run a basic flanking maneuver, possibly with arty support but with at least two teams of assaulting infantry approaching along different axes is either a work in progress or a total failure and CMSF is no exception.

[dalem]

Originally posted by MarkEzra:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by thewood:

Its not my jaw or fists that are clenched...

Well that limits the alternatives to: don't go to the Minneapolis airport until at least patch 1.04 </font>

[thewood]

Originally posted by dalem:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MarkEzra:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by thewood:

Its not my jaw or fists that are clenched...

Well that limits the alternatives to: don't go to the Minneapolis airport until at least patch 1.04 </font>

[MarkEzra]

Last nite it was "circle jerk" and tonite is "airport reach around"...can't you guys keep the schedule straight!?

[Hawkmek]

What's with all this 'foot-tapping' nonsense?

I hear it's "bad".

I'll have to stop doing that and whistling while on the can. I just try to let guys know they are not alone in the john and they should act accordingly.

My actions could be misconstrued.

I would hate to get caught with my pants down.

[thewood]

Just thought I'd drop in and see how my thread was....

...quietly backs out of thread and closes door softly.

[Battlefront.com]

Thanks for the post thewood. It's all we can ask for. Some people wouldn't like CM:SF even if there were no bugs in it at all. Some wouldn't like it even if QBs were identical to CMx1. Some just don't know because they are finding the bugs getting in the way of discovering one way or another if the game is for them. Others already know they love it and think of the upcoming fixes as enhancements of a game they already enjoy. Lots of different types.

For the ones that haven't made up their minds yet due to the bugs, hang in there. They will be addressed. One thought is to take a break from the game and come back in a few weeks or at some later point. That's not a bad idea as I am sure most of you can find something else to pass the time between now and then (especially those of you in Minneapolis apparently! ).

Steve

[Lurker765]

Thanks Steve. I love you guys.

If us old grogs cause trouble it is only because we are emotionaly tied up and care about you making a game we can all have fun with. If Ubisoft gave us a buggy game we just go away quietly because we don't care very much.

If any of my posts were grumpy I didn't mean it. I bought CMBO, CMBB and CMAK in addition to pre-ordering CMSF. I probably still owe you guys money for all the fun I have had.

But after all that is said...please don't sign any more deadline deals if you still have money in the bank. These bugs are killing me. I never would have doubted your vision if I had bought v1.09 instead of getting v1.01. A few extra months in the oven would have saved an awful lot of grief.

[Hawkmek]

I'm with Lurker.

I love CM in all its' incarnations. And I do feel like my thoughts and feelings about the game (and anything else we throw on the forum) will actually be read by someone 'in the know'.

Why would any of us bother posting on a forum for some MegaGame Conglomeration that cranks out crap 4 times a year.

Their forums are brought up, hyperactive infants post non-stop for a month, and then they move on to the next game out of the chute.

BFC is more of a Mom and Pop place. I wouldn't leave it for the world.

Last retail game I purchased was Company of Heroes.

I never cared enough about it to read the forums or bother with posting my own comments. I played it awhile, installed patches as they came, and eventually grew tired of it.

I'll stick with CMSF. The new scenarios that come out keep me busy even if the system is a little buggy at times. Looking forward to WW2 though.

Peace Out,

BG

[Thomm]

Originally posted by Hawkmek:

I'll stick with CMSF. The new scenarios that come out keep me busy ...

If I remember correctly, I never downloaded a user-made scenario for a CMx1 game, because I grew tired of spending hour after hour on individual WeGo scenarios even before finishing the stock scenarios!

Now, with CM:SF, I am refresh-monkeying the Scenario forum!

I guess that is a good sign!

Best regards,

Thomm

[Redwolf]

Good post, thewood.

It's a nasty combination to have your preferences about future directions not met and then having technical problems. The technical problems prevent you from giving the picked concept a fair chance.

As Bahger said, both fire and maneuver are just not there yet, and that's too basic to ignore without a lot of Tequila.

If the game can be patched up to reliably fire on the enemy in a predictable and useful manner (ammo selection included) and move through paths that are either realistic or close to what I plotted things will be a lot different.

[MarkEzra]

Originally posted by Hawkmek:

I'm with Lurker.

I love CM in all its' incarnations. And I do feel like my thoughts and feelings about the game (and anything else we throw on the forum) will actually be read by someone 'in the know'.

Why would any of us bother posting on a forum for some MegaGame Conglomeration that cranks out crap 4 times a year.

Their forums are brought up, hyperactive infants post non-stop for a month, and then they move on to the next game out of the chute.

BFC is more of a Mom and Pop place. I wouldn't leave it for the world.

Last retail game I purchased was Company of Heroes.

I never cared enough about it to read the forums or bother with posting my own comments. I played it awhile, installed patches as they came, and eventually grew tired of it.

I'll stick with CMSF. The new scenarios that come out keep me busy even if the system is a little buggy at times. Looking forward to WW2 though.

Peace Out,

BG

I'm with Hawkmek who is with Lurker...

[thewood]

Not that there is anything wrong with that...

[gouldjg]

I have played the past titles but never stuck with them because more interested in the HOI series etc.

Now I am not a frequent visitor to this site or neither am I a big fan of the game history.

I just feel this game has great potential and the fact that BF have some hardcore and loyal fans make me think I should at least give the devs a chance before dumping the game and as they say picking up another game and classing this as a bad move.

1.3 made huge improvemnt for me but there is still some more things that need doing as others have already stated.

So I am popping in to say that not all noob users have yet jumped the ship but I do think you guys whom know and trust BF should give others users a bit more optimistic posts regarding updates like this one.

Otherwise the casual noob users will most likely jump the ship and then = no growing fanbase = no money = no better products.

Come on BF

Please dont go on my list of to avoid devs

[Hawkmek]

MarkEzra said: I'm with Hawkmek who is with Lurker... [smile]

and we are . . . THE THREE AMIGOS!

[helm123]

Originally posted by thewood:

OK, I don't like CMSF as it is. In fact, I hate it almost as much Squad Assault in its many incarnations. People who know me know that is a bold statement.

But taking a step back, I ask myself why do I hate it. Is it the design? Is it the interface? Is it the state it was released in? Is it because its not CM1? Or maybe I am just old and pissed off at everything that is different.

The answer is yes to all of the above. If CMSF had come out in a perfect state, I probably would have loved it. Maybe even if it had come out in a near perfect state, I would have still loved it. There was no waffling on CMBO, I loved it the minute I saw it.

CMSF was like that for the first 5 minutes and then I realized it was very buggy, the concept was not well presented, UI was a little cludgy, gameplay was not documented well, and it was more limited in scope than I expected. That last word is key. Bugginess combined with expectations is what seemed to kill it for me. If either one of those things (bugginess or expectations) didn't exist, I would be all over CMSF like stink on crap.

So now I am taking that step back, lowering my expectations, and waiting for BFC to work out the bugs. Based on past performance, I believe BFC will get the bugs out or go down trying. That's assuming BFC has not changed its core philosophy of delivering well designed games and supporting them.

Yeah, paying to beta test a game rubs me the wrong way, but I have done it for companies that delivered me a lot less than the 7 years of enjoyment that BFC has. Yes, I am cutting BFC some slack. They deserve it.

I have stopped worrying and am just waiting for 1.04. Now if BFC could just get the damned Strykers to fire their...oh wait...inner peace, never mind.

edit - btw, I would normally get charged $185 by my therapist for that kind rant, so I can take that and invest it other BFC products. I feel good.

If only more people would take this step or try the demo first. I know alot of people preordered with grand visions in their mind about how the game will be. Heck I did the same thing with TOW and preordered and regetted the purchase, but it was my fault so I took that on on the chin. This time I decided to wait for a demo, decided the game was either half baked or will never meet my expectations via the demo.

Not a big fan of any game that has scripted STRATAI