Dead people - will we see them?

[Cpl Steiner]

I remember in another thread that casualties might receive "buddy aid" for a while but what happens after that? If the casualty is only wounded, does the model disappear to simulate medical evacuation? If the casualty is a KIA, does the model remain on the map? Will we see lots of bodies on the ground for the remainder of the game after a heavy firefight like in CMx1?

[Michael Dorosh]

HANG ON LITTLE BUDDY!!!!! TWO MONTHS TO GO!!!!

[Moon]

After buddy aid is successfully completed, the body disappears. This is both a feature to simulate that the casualty has been extracted/saved as well as a way to reduce the impact on framerates from having tons of bodies lying around. Having said that... buddy aid only happens when you keep the units stationary. If you move them, the caualties are left behind. This will likely cost you some points, and will also leave the bodies visible until mission end.

As with the previous games (and as you can see from the Teen rating), no mutilation or gore is shown. That has no place in a tactical strategy game.

Martin

[Lars]

I SEE THEM EVERYWHERE!!!

[NoxSpartana]

Originally posted by Moon:

After buddy aid is successfully completed, the body disappears. This is both a feature to simulate that the casualty has been extracted/saved as well as a way to reduce the impact on framerates from having tons of bodies lying around. Having said that... buddy aid only happens when you keep the units stationary. If you move them, the caualties are left behind. This will likely cost you some points, and will also leave the bodies visible until mission end.

As with the previous games (and as you can see from the Teen rating), no mutilation or gore is shown. That has no place in a tactical strategy game.

Martin

What's this "buddy aid" thing? Care to go into details?

Also, since no "gore or mutilation" is shown, what happens when a soldier is shot, does he just fall down or what?

[ChrisND]

Originally posted by NoxSpartana:

Nope, he yells "Ohoo that tickles" and flys off.

[Moon]

Nox, yes, soldiers yell and fall to earth.

Buddy aid: when members of a squad get incapacitated, another squad member in the vicinity is going to get up, run over to the wounded guy, and treat him automatically. Even if this means exposing himself to fire sometimes. Of course this means a hit to the efficiency of your squad because the guy doing buddy aid is not going to fire at the enemy. After the treatment (which, depending on your game difficulty settings, can take from a minute to many minutes), the wounded soldier disappears form map, and the guy who did buddy aid joins back in the fight.

You can move the other guys of the squad someplace else, in which case no buddy aid will be done, but you will get a higher point loss for the untreated casualty at the end of the mission.

Martin

[panzermartin]

Originally posted by Moon:

Buddy aid: when members of a squad get incapacitated, another squad member in the vicinity is going to get up, run over to the wounded guy, and treat him automatically. Even if this means exposing himself to fire sometimes. Of course this means a hit to the efficiency of your squad because the guy doing buddy aid is not going to fire at the enemy. After the treatment (which, depending on your game difficulty settings, can take from a minute to many minutes)

This sounds like it can cause some annoying problems I fear, getting a whole squad killed one by one trying to aid their fallen comrades.

[Lars]

Originally posted by Moon:

Can we run them over with the Stryker?

[**YK2**]

I see dead people..... :eek:

[Sergei]

Will there be zombies?

[Spanish Bombs]

Does 'buddy aid' usage relate to the nature of the force? In other words, I imagine US Army would always engage in it, and Syrian Uncom Combatants never or rarely.

I was going to ask if Syrians would have the feature at all, but this thread answered my question since search is my friend. But I still wonder if there is a reduced efficiency of 'buddy aid' based upon the unit involved, a question Steve seemed to raise in the earlier thread as well.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Spanish Bombs:

But I still wonder if there is a reduced efficiency of 'buddy aid' based upon the unit involved, a question Steve seemed to raise in the earlier thread as well.

In game terms, though, what would be the difference? Even a US medic can't give magical heal-up to a fallen G.I. If a man is out of the fight, he stays out of the fight. The difference would be what will happen to the soldier after the battle when the quality and training of ambulances and field hospitals come to play.

[Spanish Bombs]

But a fit, well-equipped 2007 US Army unit could theoretically triage, stabilize and evacuate a wounded soldier within minutes (and thus within a scenario's time limits). Cf. a wounded 6th Army soldier in the keseel in December 1942 Stalingrad who would might receive buddy aid, but would likely never really be stabilized and certainly never be evacuated.

I use extremes as examples, and obviously there are infinite variables, most notably the seriousness of the wound, but the point is that there is probably a range of abilities to treat wounded efficiently, some dependant on the era and unit providing the treatment and their medical supplies and abilitis, and this would effect game play by the fact that one wounded guy = two guys removed from squad firepower.

[InvaderCanuck]

I'd be interested to know what the real sop for this is. Is it flexible or is it strict?

I mean, I can see immediately rendering aid in a low to moderate intensity situation. However, leaving cover to go grab a buddy when you are coming under heavy fire seems illogical to me.

One wounded or KIA is better than two wounded or two KIA, by jeopardizing yourself in such a situation you are harming your mission objectives and placing your other buddies in further harm.

I would certainly hope that the intensity of the firefight plays a roll in this behavior. I would hate to have to uproot a squad and move them from cover away from the casualty in fierce firefights just to defeat the buddy aid AI.

It definitely would seem absurd to me to have one guy get tagged and then one by one the entire squad if left to their own devices runs out to get mowed down.

[Cpl Steiner]

Originally posted by InvaderCanuck:

It definitely would seem absurd to me to have one guy get tagged and then one by one the entire squad if left to their own devices runs out to get mowed down.

You've obviously never seen "Full Metal Jacket" then!

Seriously though, I agree that there should be a self-preservation instinct for the buddy. Heavy fire, he leaves the casualty.

[Cpl Steiner]

Further to the above, in the Falklands War, the British Paras where often ordered to leave their wounded where they fell and push on to the objective. Of course this was in a rural setting at night with nothing but conventional forces to worry about. A middle east setting is so much more complicated because of the likelihood of casualties being ill-treated or used for propaganda purposes if captured.

[Homo ferricus]

can Moon or Steve or someone else please clarify: What if a soldier is killed by a bullet instantly, i.e. head shot, does he still receive buddy aid, or is his body left, because why go into the thick of a firefight to look at your dead buddy? And also, are head shots or leg shots or torso shots modeled?

[Scipio]

Originally posted by Cpl Steiner:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by InvaderCanuck:

It definitely would seem absurd to me to have one guy get tagged and then one by one the entire squad if left to their own devices runs out to get mowed down.

You've obviously never seen "Full Metal Jacket" then!

Seriously though, I agree that there should be a self-preservation instinct for the buddy. Heavy fire, he leaves the casualty. </font>

[dima]

Originally posted by Moon:

Nox, yes, soldiers yell and fall to earth.

Buddy aid: when members of a squad get incapacitated, another squad member in the vicinity is going to get up, run over to the wounded guy, and treat him automatically.

Martin

Martin, what about insurgent side? Do they also drop what they are doing and go help wounded?

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by Spanish Bombs:

this thread answered my question since search is my friend...

In reviewing that thread I'm not sure I understand if combat medics / corpsmen will be availble to be attached to the company or squads in this game.

My sense is no medics, just "buddy aid", but am not sure.

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by panzermartin:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Moon:

Buddy aid: when members of a squad get incapacitated, another squad member in the vicinity is going to get up, run over to the wounded guy, and treat him automatically. Even if this means exposing himself to fire sometimes. Of course this means a hit to the efficiency of your squad because the guy doing buddy aid is not going to fire at the enemy. After the treatment (which, depending on your game difficulty settings, can take from a minute to many minutes)

This sounds like it can cause some annoying problems I fear, getting a whole squad killed one by one trying to aid their fallen comrades. </font>

[MikeyD]

"I agree that there should be a self-preservation instinct for the buddy."

I'm reminded of the scene from Saving Private Ryan where the soldier's been shot by a sniper and though his comrades are almost arm's length away they're unable to come to his aid because of the sniper threat. Either that or it was just Vin Diesel who got shot so they let him die.

[Sixxkiller]

Ya he was getting ready to do XXX so he needed to die that day so he could go and become a big star and later do even worse movies. You go Vin

[Battlefront.com]

The direct simulation of wounded is quite simplistic, since the real deal is extremely complicated. Almost an entirely different simulation.

The US forces, and to some extent Syrian as well, have follow on troops. These guys are often as plentiful as the guys doing the fighting. It pretty quickly falls on these semi-combatant troops to collected wounded/dead, detainees, wounded detainees, wounded civilians, etc. Walking wounded help out too. Fit soldiers that temporarily are distracted by these tasks offload their responsibilities as quickly as possible so they can rejoin their units.

In situations where heavy casualties are expected, like a tough MOUT fight, the support troops allocated for such tasks goes up dramatically. There could be a whole Rifle Platoon split up and tasked with supporting 3 Rifle Platoons so the fighting force is not reduced in size by non-combat distractions. And of course there are dedicated medical units that can be allocated to support a force.

Like I said, it is extremely complex and there is no way we can do anything but scratch the surface of it. The best we can do is offer some reward/penalty for taking care of immediate casuatlies within the unit. That's what Buddy Aid simulates and that is the full extent we are simulating this stuff.

Syrian units can do buddy aid too. Based on things we've read even Insurgents in Iraq do this to some extent. The difference is that they don't have the resources to be very effective at it. That is, however, outside of the scope of CM.

Steve