CMx2: probably not for me

[Hensworth]

The problem is he never actually got it to work, to the best of my knowledge.

The tool featured a gridded map of the Sevastopol area. Each grid corresponded to a CM battle map, on which the victory flags (and much else besides) were modded to show a password when you captured it. That password could then be used to unlock the next grid.

In actual fact only two scenarios were ever released, the second one as a run of the mill CMBB scenario (so not incorporated into the grid).

This password business and the fact that the map edges fit formed the only link between two battles, forces didn't carry over from one battle into the next and your starting position wasn't affected by what happened in the last game or anything.

All this to the best of my recollection since the thing went completely dead well over a year ago I think.

What Nils is so pissed off about is a mystery to me. Is it the lack of acclaim ? The interface he built looked good and both the mods and the scenarios were of a very high standard. But an actual campaign that you could play through it was not.

[Barrold]

Oh that's right, there was something more involved than just the original operations. I am not into stuff that requires a bunch of outside record handling to play a game of CMBB. More power to those who do, but I stuck with the operations.

I know he put a lot of work into the maps, units, and scenario design which is all commendable. My point is that he caught crap for his efforts regardless of his intentions.

It also means he doesn't have any more credance to kvetch about an unreleased game than someone who wrote "CMBB w00t!!" on a white T-shirt with a magic marker and walked around town in it.

BDH

[wolf66]

Like Kindergarden.........still Eichenbaums Operation Störfang was GREAT and I am sure a whole lot of hard work. And it was put in to give many players something BF couldnt or wouldnt. Thank you Nils

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by wolf66:

Like Kindergarden.........still Eichenbaums Operation Störfang was GREAT and I am sure a whole lot of hard work. And it was put in to give many players something BF couldnt or wouldnt. Thank you Nils

I seem to recall BFC's original stance on campaigns was that they were unrealistic and wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole. Seems to me they are yielding, or at least appear to be on the surface, based solely on what Steve has said in these forums.

Having seen some of the "manual" campaigns - call them "strategic layers" if you will - and having thought at least superficially about creating one myself, it becomes how obviously complex they are. Steve posted recently that it takes more than 10 minutes of work. I think eichenbaum himself will agree, in fact, I think he is pissed because like many of us, we'd like to see something like that without having to do the work ourselves.

I still wouldn't be too harsh on BFC for not attempting to do what has been demonstrably a ton of work for apparently little gain, especially if it doesn't fit in with their design philosophy.

And guess what - if BFC did put out a game with dynamic strategic layer, at the expense of broader tactical subjects, there would be multitudes of whiners coming out to say they had sold out on their own philosophy just to make money. Can't please everyone, why try.

[MikeyD]

Reading these posts I have yet to see BFC mention the graphical representation of blood spurting from the necks of wounded soldiers before they die. If CMx2 does not have blood spurting from necks of wounded soldiers before they die it won't be the game of my dreams! This casts serious doubt on the whole undertaking.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

Reading these posts I have yet to see BFC mention the graphical representation of blood spurting from the necks of wounded soldiers before they die. If CMx2 does not have blood spurting from necks of wounded soldiers before they die it won't be the game of my dreams! This casts serious doubt on the whole undertaking.

Steve "Corporate Sellout" Grammont also has yet to mention shovelling dalem's driveway. Guess he doesn't want Dale's money.

Ingrate. :mad:

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by eichenbaum:

WEGO, detailed graphics, 1:1 infantry... are these new concepts? For me new is Duke Nukem from sprites into 3d. It's a difference in opinion.

That's a strange example to use, and it really illustrates how little you know about the game you're trying to criticize.

First of all, there has never been a Duke Nukem game in 3D, unless you're refering to the eternal vaporware Duke Nukem Forever. Secondly, the move from sprites to 3D in FPS generally made possible much more detailed and realistic graphics, but the actual gameplay wasn't greatly affected. One of the chief complaints about Doom 3 is that once you look past the graphics it's still basically the same game as Doom 1.

Ironically, CMx2 is introducing some new features such as dynamic light and an advance particle system that have the potential of having a fundamental effect on gameplay at least to the extent of the example you gave. But I suspect you didn't know about that...

[DesertFox]

Why all this fuzz about a game which up to today is nothing more than a concept (if at all)?

Wait until you see something solid and not just hot air or wait for a demo, if there will be one.

When time has come and you have seen the actual game, it is early enough to decide if it is worth your money or not.

*Shakes head*

[Battlefront.com]

The points have been made well by others, but I would like to round them up:

What we do with CM is what we do with CM. What others do to support CM is what others do to support CM. We take no credit for what others do except for the fact that without us it wouldn't exist in the first place. We deeply appreciate the hard work and dedicated support that people have shown for the game. It means a lot to us personally and it of course means a lot to the community. Community is something that would exist with or without the external projects because the game itself is strong enough to support it. Proof? We had a community before CMBO Beta Demo was released and therefore before any external projects existed. All that has happened since then is that the community has grown and, dare I say, matured (ooo... I am going to regret saying that ). But through it all it has been the strength of the game itself that has made the community what it is. No amount of mods, scenarios, tactical discussions, etc. would keep players around if the game itself was found lacking in some serious way.

The problem we faced when doing CMBB was we realized that we had to start over again, yet we had put so much time and effort into the engine we couldn't afford (yet) to trash it and start over again. I'd also say that we didn't have the experience we needed to know how to form the second engine the way we needed it to be. CMBB gave us that experience and then some. We therefore started the new engine after CMBB as we were doing CMAK. We applied the lessons learned from CMBB to CMAK and got out another great product, equal in scope to the previous two, but in 1 year instead of 2 or 3. However, we knew that was the end of the road for the engine. So the wait between CMAK and the first CMx2 game began the moment CMAK was released.

With the new engine we were faced with two choices. We could have simply updated the graphics engine and pretty much just tweaked the game system, for example doing better artillery handling or fixing something like separating out Suppression from Morale. The end product would have been significantly better than CMx1, but it would be faced with most of the same basic limitations. It also wouldn't push the envelope at all. So we went with the second choice and that was to spend more time to redo the entire game from the ground up. Everything that would have gone into the first option's effort plus tons and tons more stuff. It is going to take us longer to do, but it will be worth it.

As I have said many times before, we do not expect each of you to purchase everything we make, be it a major release or a Module. You didn't all buy the first three games from us either, so expecting anything different would be foolish. We hope that you guys can also understand this. There is no one Battlefront.com customer to cater to so someone is certainly going to not want what we release. Again, the same thing happened with the CMx1 family of games and so the evidence is irrefutable.

We hope that the community holds together during this transition. In fact, we hope that it gets stronger and larger, not to mention more diversified. This is good for everybody in so many ways it isn't really useful to count. Will there be people making addons, modules, and what not for future CMx2 games? Absolutely. We don't doubt that for a second. But will it be the same exact people that supported CMx1 in that way? Some for sure, others not. Just like people only supported CMBB or CMAK or CMBO and not all three. So it is clear that whatever happens with CMx2's customer support and community, it will not be any different than CMx1's customer support and community. Not in the big picture anyway.

As for my treatment of people on this Forum. You are treated in the manner you deserve. I don't care if you have 1 post or 10,000 to your name. I don't care if you have bought one game or all three. I don't care if you have spent 10000 hours supporting our games or merely benefited from the hard work of others. To do otherwise would be to play favorites and that would be wrong. I also don't consider having a friend over who pees on my carpet and throws the beer I handed him at my face to be a friend. I don't care what that person claims to have done for me because at that moment I have some jerk'o assaulting me with the things that I have provided to him. I can forgive and forget if the friend gives me cause to, but I won't sit there and take what no person should have to take simply because that person feels I owe him something. I don't. Or at least I owe that person no more than he owes me. So if someone can't behave, then that is their problem that they are forcing on me and there isn't really any choice for me in terms of how I react. I actually think of myself as pretty laid back and restrained compared to how others would be when placed in the same situation.

Lots of people voice concerns on this Forum. Lots of them are now unsure, or even doubting, that we're going in the right direction. As long as these concerns are voiced constructively I never, ever get my feathers ruffled. Never. So that is a clear indication that the method of the message is what brings about threads like this, not the content of it.

As for the campaign stuff. I'll get into that in other threads in more detail, but we actually haven't changed our vision that much. We believe the big "über" campaigns are not our cup of tea for various reasons. That was our thinking 9 years ago and it is our thinking today. What has changed is the method within that vision. And that is a good thing because it means we can be innovative without compromising principles that we feel must remain in place. It is fine that people disagree with our principles, but since we're on the hook for decisions made... the vision of others comes without ramifications and consequences of the vision. That's why we treat customer feedback seriously and carefully, yet not forget that we should never take it as marching orders.

Well, that's about all on that Check out this other thread for a related discussion:

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=52&t=000159Steve

[mrpwase]

Hopefully that's wrapped things up. CMx2 will be what it will be. It'll most likely be good. Some people might not like it. I might not like it. But then again, I probably will like it, and I think most CM1 fans will like it too. >_>

[A.E.B]

We all beat each other up other something that may or may not even exist. What are we, religious fanatics!

I am fully aware that CMX2 will be what ever BFC can/wants to make it.

We don't own BFC, we are not shareholders, we are just customers, so the only say we get is if we spend our money.

That said, the problem with waiting for the demo is that by then the game will be 95% complete. To late for major changes.

What threads like this achieve - if anything - is to give BFC an indication of what a small part of its customer base wants/thinks. Just feedback.

However, in 2006 or whenever CMX2 hits the shelves, BFC will not be able to say "but we though you guys didn't want PBEM or a campaign! Why didn't you tell us?"

A.E.B

[Battlefront.com]

However, in 2006 or whenever CMX2 hits the shelves, BFC will not be able to say "but we though you guys didn't want PBEM or a campaign! Why didn't you tell us?"

Actually, if the rapid and clueless PBEMers keep their assault on our sanity up much longer, we will be able to say that because the lobotomy will have likely erradicated the memory

Trust me, your voices are heard. Even though I think of a lot of these rumblings as the rumblings of a vocal minority, you are still important and are therefore listened to. It doesn't mean we're going to do whatever you say, but it gets fair consideration. Customer feedback only gets annoying, and counter productive, when people don't listen to the answers, don't understand the answers, or simply put think they know the answers without knowning them. That's the kind of feedback nobody should have to be subjected to.

You guys had a tremendous impact on the design of CMBO and CMBB without demos. You'll do find with CMx2 as well. Annoying and needlessly repetitious (or plain rude) comments excepted

Steve

[Znarf]

GOOD GOD!

:mad: You all are parsing words like lawyers! :mad:

Fans, please CHILL. Throw in CMBB, mod a scenario with a bunch of Soviet rocket spotters, and blow up a city on Turn 1. You'll feel much better.

Now, WHEN CAN I PRE-ORDER CMx2? I'm buying it without hesitation.

[Thog]

Sounds good to me. I think it's pretty easy to lose perspective when you're passionate about something, and if you've been part of a 'community' for many years that's doubly true.

Experience going back to the BTS days indicates these guys will make a good game. If I dislike the decisions made to the point that I dislike the game itself, I won't buy it, but I'm not the designer and not responsible for the outcome.

I suspect that at worst I'll be disappointed if the topic doesn't match my interest (I'm rooting for a post-1950 game), but I won't exactly expect these guys to fall on their sword if I don't get exactly what I think I want. I'm not quite OCD enough for that. *g*

[flamingknives]

Thog! You are indeed a lurkur par excellence.

And with excellent taste.

Cold War period combat would be a superb setting, IMHO.

[GreenAsJade]

Hey, this is the "its not for me thread" not the "make it Cold War" thread. If you don't want to bash CMx2 or eichenbaum, go find your own thread

[flamingknives]

No comrade, every thread is a thread for the people!

[Ardem]

I am normally the first to jump and give BFC a mouth full of why thing make good business sense, but I going to take a leaf out of Dorsh book today.

I would much prefer BFC would on the release of there first verion how they want it to be, with all the new goodies they wish to add, and then with sucessive modules to add in the elements as a community we would like to see.

The reason being programming is about passion and if you concentrate on what you want as a passion then your going to get some great results. If your only into half hearted for a particular element, then your going to get a half hearted results.

But if you want the money for your modules, then listen to the little people and hopefully we get a well rounded game.

[Barrold]

...but...but..Dorosh's books are about Canadian uniforms so my head's all a' spinnin'

Whoa..

Seriously though, the problem of project creep is an issue as the addition of more and more features drags out the completion date. Fortunately for us, Charle's being a brain floating in a nutrient bath keeps much of the tedium of coding day after stultifying day to a minimum.

In normal circumstances though, I would think continually pushing the date back to add yet another feature would dampen the enthusiasm a touch. Breaking up the process into smaller projects has to be more invigorating than the previous model, but it sure looks like they have set up a large amount of work for themselves.

BDH

[Mies]

Fortunately for us, Charle's being a brain floating in a nutrient bath keeps much of the tedium of coding day after stultifying day to a minimum.

Is that the melange from Dune that enables hyperspace travelling? It would explain the Spacelobsters of Doom concept.

Mies

[GreenAsJade]

No comrade, every thread is a thread for the people!

In that case, I can't resist this quote:

Unfortunately for Cold War aficionados, Cold War isn't on our Top 5 list. And since we don't have a list beyond the Top 5, Cold War is effectively not even on our radar screens

Wey-hey WWII & Space Lobsters of DOOOM!!!

[Barrold]

Is that the melange from Dune that enables hyperspace travelling

No, no, no...the rumors have mentioned nothing about such a substance. It is much more likely to be Red Bull and grain alcohol.

BFS5

[flamingknives]

Originally posted by GreenAsJade:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />No comrade, every thread is a thread for the people!

In that case, I can't resist this quote:

Unfortunately for Cold War aficionados, Cold War isn't on our Top 5 list. And since we don't have a list beyond the Top 5, Cold War is effectively not even on our radar screens

Wey-hey WWII & Space Lobsters of DOOOM!!! </font>

[Thog]

"Thog! You are indeed a lurkur par excellence."

Heh, more a "Lurker par Lazyness", since I keep forgetting my damned password and am too lazy usually to bother to hunt it down.

But hey, I'll take the freebie.

*g*