CMx2: probably not for me

[Gordon]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

Actually Im having enough trouble just trying to work out the correct lobster colouring under combat conditions

Dan

Red, especially if fighting against engineer units with flamethrowers (and melted butter projectors).

[Battlefront.com]

Oh boy, more crap

Now, Steve can throw words around about how much more they can do in a shorter period of time blah blah blah, but, I can see with clear eyes this is a "money" move. Nothing wrong with wanting to make money, but, with greed comes needs and (my) needs outweight greed in my book.

No, you don't have any "needs", you have "wants". We are the ones with the needs... and we need to be compensated for the stress, time, and risk that we put into our games. Otherwise we close up shop. Then you get nothing more from us. We all lose.

as it so happens, before reading this I posted something similar to this thread:

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=52;t=000155

If it were just a money thing we would do the same thing we did for CMx1 and just jack up the price. For people that have been playing a single game for 2-3 years you guys shouldn't complain. I've got shelves full of more expensive games that I didn't play for 1/5 th the time. And I am sure you do to.

We got CMBO for $35, to get the same affect from the modular system CMX2 is going to be could take 100's of dollars, and I know I'm not going to put that much into modular/scenario type games, if I were going to do that I would own the lot of HPS titles on the market.

Wrong again. To reinforce what I just said about this not being a money thing... you will never, ever have a CMx2 game that is like a CMx1 game. Not for any price. We'll release a couple of modules and that's it. On to other things. And to compare what we do to HPS is rather a poor comparison. You most certainly bought CM based on what the game experience is like, not because it is cheaper than HPS. Don't insult youself by lying that it is any other way. Anyway, bargin bin hunters are the worst sorts of customers and we wouldn't want to cater to them anyway.

I believe I read something like even though units would be represented on a 1:1 scale you only get 24 bases to move.

Like most of the whiners on this Forum, you are are completely misinformed. Don't worry... its a time honored tradition

You couldn't possibly have ready any such thing because it isn't true.

Realistic would be control over each individual little man, that I might pay for.

You might indeed, provided you didn't play the demo. That kind of game would suck ass. It is impractical. Nobody has done it and nobody will. It simply isn't possible to do. Well, at least as a commercially viable product. I know none of us at Battlefront would want to play such a game.

I haven't read a thing about the new system that speaks loudly about "newness",

Correction... you obviously haven't read a thing. Well, at least not read what was written (demonstrated by your comment about 24 "bases", whatever the heck that is).

Of course I expect to be flamed, quartered, disembowled and all that from my "opinions", but, nevertheless they are my opinions and I'm entitled to them.

You are entitled to your opinions. Of course, I am entitled to the opinion that you are a whiner

The industry in in an uproar because recent sales in the past few years are down.

That is not true at all. The sales have simply shifted over to consoles. The overall sales have grown.

Hrmmm I wonder why? Two things I see as why, too many buggy/flawed released games and too much of the same ole with "less" than before, except the "graphics". Graphics will sell for awhile, but, eventually even the dumbest of individuals will see they aren't getting much for their money.

We agree, which is why CMx2 is not focused on graphics. The fact that you THINK that clearly demonstrates that you only read what you want to read in this Forum. And that is stuff you think of as negative. The rest you either don't understand or skip over. I think it is more not understanding. I'm sure if you were on our Forums 8 years ago you would have said the same crap about CMBO. The great thing about whining is that it is timeless, can be applied to anything, and a well balanced viewpoint isn't required.

My advice... if you don't think CMx2 is going to be worth it to you... stop reading the Forum. Wait for the Demo, check it out, and then see what you think of it. Clearly your imagination isn't up to the task.

Steve

[ September 07, 2005, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ]

[76mm]

Kellysheroes:

You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but I've got to object to one of your points--to complain that CMx2 modules will be more expensive than, say, CMBB, etc. is just ludicrous. In retrospect, CMBB and the other CMx1 games were ridiculously cheap for the value delivered, and for the amount of research and development that Battlefront put into them. I am still playing CMBB several years later and still have not experimented with all of the units, etc. It is like a car company selling a car for $500 that you can drive for 2 million miles.

The bottom line is that the market for this type of game is relatively tiny, and if you sell one game that people in this market will play for five years for $35, you're not going to be around to develop many more games like that. You can call it greedy if you want, but I am pretty damn glad that Battlefront is bothering to develop these games at all and hope that they can earn at least a little $$ for their (unappreciated) efforts.

76mm

[76mm]

you will never, ever have a CMx2 game that is like a CMx1 game. Not for any price. We'll release a couple of modules and that's it. On to other things.

Although this tidbit is rather disappointing...

76mm

[BloodyBucket]

That quote is a little troubling. I had visions in my head of at least several modules, covering different periods....

'Course, could be it means it will only take a couple modules to cover the same scope as CM1.

[junk2drive]

Originally posted by 76mm:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> you will never, ever have a CMx2 game that is like a CMx1 game. Not for any price. We'll release a couple of modules and that's it. On to other things.

Although this tidbit is rather disappointing...

76mm </font>

[Reg Pither]

Originally posted by 76mm:

Kellysheroes:

In retrospect, CMBB and the other CMx1 games were ridiculously cheap for the value delivered, and for the amount of research and development that Battlefront put into them. I am still playing CMBB several years later and still have not experimented with all of the units, etc. It is like a car company selling a car for $500 that you can drive for 2 million miles.

The bottom line is that the market for this type of game is relatively tiny, and if you sell one game that people in this market will play for five years for $35, you're not going to be around to develop many more games like that. You can call it greedy if you want, but I am pretty damn glad that Battlefront is bothering to develop these games at all and hope that they can earn at least a little $$ for their (unappreciated) efforts.

76mm

I think that this is probably the best post I've seen on the whole forum!

Heck, I'm still playing CMBO (and the demo's of BB and AK), and am still enjoying it immensely. There is still nothing like it on the market, even in production or on the far horizon.

So even if CMx2 were just CMx1 with much improved graphics and a few 'minor' changes (and I know it's not) I'd be rushing out to buy it straight away. Hurrah for Battlefront, I say.

[eichenbaum]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />BFC, why are you guys wasting so much time debating people who are commenting on a game about which they know almost nothing?

Nah, it wasn't that much time. Maybe 10 minutes total. And I've been saving up some extra time each day knowing that sooner, much sooner, than later someone would say something silly like this. So now that its happened, and I've responded, the time to respond to unreasonable nonsense is just about used up

Steve </font>

[GreenAsJade]

Well, that guy had really already decided he'd had a gutful, hadn't he?

I don't usually like the way Steve deals with customers here, but in this case I was actually entirely sympathetic. I can't understand why you'd start a thread in teh CMx2 forum hrsaying that you think you _won't_ like CMx2 while demonstrating that you really know little about what it's going to be. Even if a person had read and absorbed everything about CMx2 (which was demonstrably not the case), that's just asking for an argument that you can't win, and asking for derision.

When you ask for derision and get it, the next thing that happens is a foregone conclusion: you get derided, suprise suprise, you get offended and you pack up your stumps and go home. That was gonna happen the moment the first post was made.

Oh well - he needs to go take up jogging or somefink else healthy..

GaJ

[RSColonel_131st]

Originally posted by eichenbaum:

You find my opinions nonsense. I only see a market; potential-computer-game-buyers who want to spend their money on something new and original. WEGO, detailed graphics, 1:1 infantry... are these new concepts? For me new is Duke Nukem from sprites into 3d.

You are being very, very unreasonable here.

Sprites to 3D was because of an advance in technology - mainly because of graphic accelerated cards.

As there hasn't been any significant technological change between CMAK and CMx2, what kind of entirely new concepts did you expect?

Wargames have been sold for many years, there's nothing "new" about simulating land warfare. You can't suddenly introduce Space Lobbsters of Doom just because you want a new "concept".

Look around everywhere in the computer game industry. Titles like FPS and Flightsims are constantly evolving - but not with "new concepts" just with more and more attention to detail as the hardware becomes faster.

The next "new concept" will come with the new physic calculation cards which aren't even on the market yet.

Sorry, you have done a lot of good for the community in the past, but right now you come across as someone who desperatly looks for a hair in his soup so he can complain.

[WineCape]

Sir,

You of course are entitled to your opinion about your perception of what CMx2 will turn out to be: A possible dissapointment in your eyes. Fine.

I have the perception, given what is stated so far on the forum, on the balance of probabilities, the complete opposite of your opinion. Fine.

Steve has stated what BFC are technical capable of doing with their CMx2 engine.

Even if BFC has landed on the moon with their previous rocket projects, who can blame them if they shoot, from the moon, to Mars and fail to reach the latter, ending somewhere between these bodies in outer space? The point is, BFC is NOT on terra firma compared to the wargame competition, and still many space miles in front on the race to Pluto, the planet of wargamers ultimate dreams & wants.

Thus, for me, they deserve respect on past achievements alone, and dare I say, a chance to see what the demo is all about. Before that, I reserve any judgement.

Sincerely,

Charl Theron

-----------------------------------------------------

Co-creator & Sponsor of the following CM tournaments:

</font>

• The serial Rumblings of War (RoW I, II, III, IV, V)</font>
• The infamous CMBO Invitational</font>
• WineCape Tourney I and II</font>

[ September 08, 2005, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: WineCape ]

[Major Jerkov]

I think he just wants some official acknowledgement.

[Soddball]

Originally posted by eichenbaum:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />BFC, why are you guys wasting so much time debating people who are commenting on a game about which they know almost nothing?

Nah, it wasn't that much time. Maybe 10 minutes total. And I've been saving up some extra time each day knowing that sooner, much sooner, than later someone would say something silly like this. So now that its happened, and I've responded, the time to respond to unreasonable nonsense is just about used up

Steve </font>

[GJK]

Yeah, I was going to say - he's feeling under appreciated for all the work that he's done for the CMx1 series and now (though he may not admit it) feels threatened by the unknown and upcoming CMx2. To be honest, I can relate almost entirely with him (see sigline ).

But eichenbaum, you've got to step back, as I recently did, and realize that all that work that you did was for what is really the greatest community, a bunch of fellow wargamers and for a great series of games, CMx1 that aren't going to die by any means when CMx2 is released.

I don't know what the future of TPG will be when CMx2 comes out. I know it wont go away, but will it support CMx2 scenarios? Possibly if I make adjustments to handle those scenarios, but more likely not. And I'm in the middle of coding for the new Scenario Depot. Dunno how CMx2 will interact with it either. Will it even get used once CMx2 comes out? I'm sure it will, but maybe not to the extent that it will be used beforehand.

But go back in your mind and remember why you built that great campaign layer in the first place: because you knew this community would enjoy it, because you enjoy the CMx1 games and because you could.

So cheer up mate, as long as someone is playing CMBO, CMBB or CMAK, there will be a need and want for eichenbaum's OSF, whether or not you get the official "pat on the back" from the game company or not. Just like all of those original Quake modders and Duke3d map makers (those were the days!) that did it for the love of those games, "unofficially" and without support.

[Salkin]

GJK, I know who you are and I'd hate to get on your bad side .

Great post though.

I think you hit the bullseye.

//Salkin

[karch]

Interesting responses. I work for a small software company and I tend to agree far more with Steve on these issues. Heck, I wish I was allowed to respond back to some of my clients like that..... we tend to pad our responses to a $50-100,000 client that is being unreasonable.

[GreenAsJade]

Yep - I too can empathise with eich and GJK (especially for that quote!!). I'm sure that BTS don't know who GaJ is or what McMMM is either.

The attitude of BTS towards the community support for their game used to irk me, but then I realised that a pat on the back from BTS is not (or should not be) the reason that anyone does something for CM. As GJK says, it's for the community and the feedback that comes from there. Or beyond that, you do it for the pleasure of seeing it done.

So there's no point in being shirty about BTS's sad attitude... they make a good game, and that's their job. If you like making stuff for the community then get pleasure from there by all means, but don't expect thanks from BTS. BTS will come down on you for making silly whinges whether you are CoG, GJK, Dorosh or Seanachai.

GaJ

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Originally posted by eichenbaum:

On the other hand I want to thank BFC for not developing the game of my dreams. Because of this I have purchased a game engine and started developing the game of my dreams. I'll be busy in the next comming years... my time for CM ran out!

ugh, good luck with your project. don't let it eat you alive, projects like that can be real mind killers

BTW you are being a bit unreasonable, especially considering we haven't even seen CMx2 yet! who knows, perhaps CMx2 let's you export and import battle data and so forth...

[Tarkus]

Originally posted by WineCape:

[...] Thus, for me, they deserve respect on past achievements alone, and dare I say, a chance to see what the demo is all about. Before that, I reserve any judgement.

Amen.

This is wisdom. Before actually firing the CMx2 demo, no one here can say anything of value to its worth. There are just too many things that combine in the mix to pretend having the faintest idea of how the game will feel. Go ahead and try to describe Memoirs of Hadrian to someone. Let me tell you it really, really ain't nothing like reading it.

Cheers

[Michael Dorosh]

BFC, in order to accommodate this shocking new loss of business, I will send 25 bucks to you in place of the revenue that eichenbaum will no longer generate for ya.

[mrpwase]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

What seriously worries me is this crazy talk of eliminating PBEM.

Why would something so great from the last edition not be included in a future version?

If this happens, I might just stick to CMBB. I don't have time to play a game for 1-2 hours straight on TCP. I just want to sit down for 10-20 minutes, make my turn, send the turn, and go back to my work.

I'd bet that a lot of working folks can only spare the same amount of time each day to play this game.

Why the hell can't you play a few turns on TCP/IP, then save it and resume it later? I know there's a need for PBEM when there's only one player online, but TCP is a lot more convenient than you think.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by GreenAsJade:

Yep - I too can empathise with eich and GJK (especially for that quote!!). I'm sure that BTS don't know who GaJ is or what McMMM is either.

The attitude of BTS towards the community support for their game used to irk me, but then I realised that a pat on the back from BTS is not (or should not be) the reason that anyone does something for CM. As GJK says, it's for the community and the feedback that comes from there. Or beyond that, you do it for the pleasure of seeing it done.

So there's no point in being shirty about BTS's sad attitude... they make a good game, and that's their job. If you like making stuff for the community then get pleasure from there by all means, but don't expect thanks from BTS. BTS will come down on you for making silly whinges whether you are CoG, GJK, Dorosh or Seanachai.

GaJ

This isn't entirely fair; Madmatt did used to run - along with SuperTed - the CMHQ and a list of "news" from approved linked sites. They simply got too busy to continue that support, or at least that was my understanding. I can see that it would be a big job. And the community got much better at it than Madmatt could be - the forums are a great place to disseminate information on mods, scenarios and applications like CMMOS etc.

[Barrold]

I'll throw in with GJK, but add some thoughts I had while reading this thread.

I don't think for a moment that before or during all of the hard work that eichenbaum did for his quite excellent scenario system he was thinking about the financial reprussions it would have for BFC. His primary motivation was most certainly based upon his ability to do something cool with the existing program to satisfy his own desire to see such operations and those in the community who also wanted them.

It is why I downloaded them and enjoyed playing them.

So even if there was any sort of way of quantifying the financial boost to BFC, the suggestion that it was a factor in the decision to create these operations is specious.

The other thing I would note is that I believe I remember some whiney critic or another blasting eichenbaum for some perceived failing or another when he released his projects.

I would ask what the response would be to someone who was spouting these criticisms without downloading and playing the operations themselves, let alone not even seeing a screenshot. Such a person would be dismissed with a wave of the proverbial hand.

Lastly, a bare minimum of respect for past products demands delaying any sort of judgement until there is a substantive release of information. If it comes out as a product ill-suited to your interest, so be it. I know I have passed on many popular games because I wasn't into the subject or genre. Likewise I have passed on games because the execution was poor even though I was intensely interested in the subject matter.

Now is not the time to form judgements. Now is the time to enjoy the building anticipation of what will soon be.

BDH

[PseudoSimonds]

If this lad is so thin-skinned that he can't take some entirely valid criticism, well, I suggest he hire a middleman when he starts interacting with customers for that game he's developing.

Maybe if you had backed up your comments with either facts (which parts of CMx2 disappoint you and why) or suggestions (what 'new' concept should've been included) you wouldn't have gotten flamed. If there's one thing this forum abhors, it's an unsupported argument.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Barrold:

The other thing I would note is that I believe I remember some whiney critic or another blasting eichenbaum for some perceived failing or another when he released his projects.

All I remember of Operation Storfgang (?) is that that eichenbaum's site logo had a swastika prominently displayed and it caused a bit of ruckus until he changed it. I do recall some positive comments on his campaign but never took a look myself.

http://www.eichenbaum.org/Images/Screenshots/OSF/Infantry02.jpg

I guess a picture of three guys walking across a prairie wasn't enough sizzle to sell the steak? May want to work on marketing a bit before launching that Game To End All Games.

If 3000 people actually downloaded it, well, congratulations, that's more DLs than my scenarios ever got at the Scenario Depot. Still doesn't give anyone the means to dictate policy to BFC.

Too weird.