CMx2: probably not for me

[76mm]

I'm sure that CMx2 will be a radical improvement in almost all respects from CMx1, despite slight concerns about the smaller scale of engagements and narrower scope of the modules.

The only feature that is really important to me, however, is the ability--somehow, someway--to export OOB data after battles and import it prior to battles to allow for player-developed campaign systems.

It took me a couple of years to do, but a couple of months ago I finally finished constructing an operational level campaign for CMBB in VASSAL and a database to track the units, leaders, etc. The only drawback being the tedium of manually entering all units into CMBB prior to each battle and manually entering the battle results into the database. Nonetheless, it is fun as hell (at least to me)--the bottom line is that I now play CMBB several times a week, while CMAK, with its quick battles and stand-alone scenarios, sits unused.

I have no idea how difficult it would be to include a data import/export feature or modifiable text fields, or how many people would actually use this feature. I suspect, however, that even if only a handful of players used the feature to create campaign systems for general use, it would result in much more interest in, and sales of, the game.

I hope that Battlefront will at least consider releasing some kind of "Developer's Module" (free or for $$) along with the first couple of modules.

76mm

[Battlefront.com]

Personally I think they'll do it and unless they reallly need the cash flow, they'll delay the launch of the new game to get it right.

Apparently no matter how many times I say this, people STILL don't get it. It has nothing to do with desire. It has nothing to do with resources. It has nothing to do with time. It has nothing to do with money. It has nothing to do with whether people want it or not. It simply has to do with it being technically possible or not. That's all. Nothing more complicated than that, which is why I am so baffled by the fact that no matter how many times I repeat this some people still don't get it.

Argh, I knew I should have just lied and told you it would be in

Steve

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by 76mm:

It took me a couple of years to do, but a couple of months ago I finally finished constructing an operational level campaign for CMBB in VASSAL and a database to track the units, leaders, etc. The only drawback being the tedium of manually entering all units into CMBB prior to each battle and manually entering the battle results into the database. Nonetheless, it is fun as hell (at least to me)--the bottom line is that I now play CMBB several times a week, while CMAK, with its quick battles and stand-alone scenarios, sits unused.

From whence can it be downloaded?

[Soddball]

I wondered a couple of days ago which idiot would be the first to start a thread about how dreadful CMX2 was going to be and how they wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

I expected it to be at least when the first screenshots came out, or when the theatre was confirmed. Perhaps I was expecting too much.

[dalem]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

And somehow Eichenbaum missed the fact that there is a campaign with role playing elements in CMx2. But people predisposed to being disapointed might miss things like this.

WHAT?!? A campaign with RPG elements? Aww, this completely ruins the game for me. Now I don't think I'm going to buy it.

Nope! Don't try to tell me about "your game that you've been involved with for the last 10 years". What could you possibly know about it?

You say it's optional and I can ignore it? My god, man - don't you know that I'd know that it would still be there? Taunting me with its appeal to other play styles, haunting me with its feature base that could be being used for something that is Right and Proper in this world, like a top-down hex-grid locked view?

I weep for your sales figures, O BFC, and I hold my fingers in my ears thusly: "NA NA NA NA NA NA!"

-dale

[hellfish]

Whoa.. RPG elements? Missed that bone... very interesting...

[PseudoSimonds]

So PBEM is out?

[eichenbaum]

Then, I guess, I have been tricked by all the fog that's hanging around CMx2. Sometimes there's a campaign system and sometimes not. FOW is probably blocking my LOS then. I’ll wait for the demo before I think of writing my opinion down in this forum.

I don’t understand how people come up with the idea that I demand something. Again: I don’t!

Nils

[76mm]

Michael:

I'm in the process of trying to figure out how to post the database so people can download it--it is basically a finished product (although it isn't terribly useful without some kind of campaign layer to use it with). Hopefully I'll have this figured out in a few days.

The Vassal campaign layer is more work in progress, so I wasn't going to make it generally available yet. But since it sounds like you're familiar with Vassal, I will try to upload it as well so that you can download it and check it out. I should warn you that this Vassal component is a fictional campaign, although you could probably use pieces of the map (featuring steppe, forest, villages, cities, rivers, etc.) for at semi-historical campaigns. Basically each hex on the campaign map equals one 3k x 3k battle map in CMBB, with some of the cities occupying 4k x 6k operations maps. I've created CMBB maps of about two dozen of these hexes, mainly villages and cities, which I can also provide if it would be helpful. As mentioned above, some of these maps are large, so you might need a decent rig to run them.

I think both the database (based on a run-time version of Access) and the campaign layer are too big to e-mail, but I could e-mail the manual I've created for the database to see if you want to mess with it.

76mm

[Michael Dorosh]

Sounds good, - email is in my profile.

[Kwazydog]

Originally posted by eichenbaum:

Then, I guess, I have been tricked by all the fog that's hanging around CMx2. Sometimes there's a campaign system and sometimes not.

Eichenbaum, I havnt seen Steve mention once that the campaign wont be in as he has been very careful about this, though its possible you may have read posts by other members that gave you that impression. I cant imagine you have read the below threads as you felt CMx2 would be similar to CMx1, so check them out for many details from Steve on the new engine. Off of the top of my head for major differences check out info on the 1:1 infantry representation, relative spotting, terrain deatils and 1m terrain and height resolution, building details, etc...

Therad 1

Thread 2

Hope they help

Dan

[ September 07, 2005, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[eichenbaum]

Thanks for the tips Dan. I'll certainly look into them.

Still I have this feeling that it appears to me that I have a different idea of "major changes" and "minor changes" of game engines. I do understand the complete re-writing, new features and so on. But 1:1 infantry, AI improvement, more detail etc... aren't major changes to me. Those are improvements of existing features, rewritten or reused.

It's like Steve said. BFC can't satisfy all fans with new releases. I guess I'm ready to move to a different game

[Peter Cairns]

Steve,

My Apologies, you may have said it's technical and nothing else a million times, but I missed it.

As far as i am concerned you are about the only people out there trying to do anything close to a credible company level sim and you should get credit for that even if the result falls short of peoples ideal.

CM1 may be old and a bit basic by modern standards but it is still as far as I can see pretty much the best sim of it's type on the market and thats a testiment to the great job you all did first time round.

If I have a worry it's that no matter how good it is it will seem to fall short simply because it is standing on the shoulders of a giant.

It's a bit like breaking a world record and getting four golds in the pool and then being told "ah but Mark Spitz got seven".

After all the work youu've put in there will still be some who will have expected more...

I bought BF 1942 a while back and it was fun, but as realistic as playing soilders when I was a kid. I'd be happy with an improved version of CM and all the current threads suggest we are on target for that and more...

Peter.

[Kwazydog]

Eichenbaum, no worries, each to their own .

As you say if you feel that the changes being made to CMx2, such as the 1:1 infantry representation, are indeed minor it looks like you may indeed ready for something different. Hopefully we may suprise you though, hehe!

Dan

[Salkin]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

What seriously worries me is this crazy talk of eliminating PBEM.

Why would something so great from the last edition not be included in a future version?

If this happens, I might just stick to CMBB. I don't have time to play a game for 1-2 hours straight on TCP. I just want to sit down for 10-20 minutes, make my turn, send the turn, and go back to my work.

I'd bet that a lot of working folks can only spare the same amount of time each day to play this game.

Fer crying out loud !

Somebody sticky the rules and regulations about discussing PBEM !

This thread is discussing the CAMPAIGN part of CMx2, leave your stinkin' PBEM talk out of it .

I just wanted to say that this game will be the bees knees nomatter what, but I'd really apreciate a Campaign where you could move units around on a map fighting germans/space lobsters or what have you.

Heck, I even made a simplified version of it with pen and paper for CMBB .

Now , I know this will not happen in CMx2's first release but I just wanted to show my interest in the feature for future releases.

Steve , I'm really looking forward to your next fantastic game.

//Salkin

[ParaBellum]

Geeze, Dan! Shouldn't you be busy working on those those ...uhm... early-war camo schemes? They ARE early-war camo schemes, right? You know which ones I'm talking about... polish, french, german, dutch... Right?

[Kwazydog]

Actually Im having enough trouble just trying to work out the correct lobster colouring under combat conditions

Dan

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by ParaBellum:

Geeze, Dan! Shouldn't you be busy working on those those ...uhm... early-war camo schemes? They ARE early-war camo schemes, right? You know which ones I'm talking about... polish, french, german, dutch... Right?

France didn't fight in Finland 1939. :mad: Stop muddying the waters. Neither did Dutchland.

[melb_will]

Dutchland? Is that north of Franceland?

[ParaBellum]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

Actually Im having enough trouble just trying to work out the correct lobster colouring under combat conditions

Dan

Ha!!! Caught ya!

Space Lobsters of Doom!!!

Oh my, wargaming will never be the same.

@TheCanadanese: see? My subtle plan worked out just as...uhm... planned. Bow to my intellect. But don't touch our lower extremities while performing the ritual kow-tow.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by melb_will:

Dutchland? Is that north of Franceland?

Not directly; the waffle-eaters of Belgeland are somewhere in the middle. :mad:

[Battlefront.com]

Still I have this feeling that it appears to me that I have a different idea of "major changes" and "minor changes" of game engines.

I shudder to think of what your standards are for "major". It's taken us 2.5 years, so far, to make the new engine. Minor changes, by any REASONABLE standard, could not possible have taken that long. Cripes, the original engine took us 3 years to write, so by the time we're done with this CMx2 will have taken even longer. In your mind to just tweak things? Sorry... but that is nuts.

It's like Steve said. BFC can't satisfy all fans with new releases. I guess I'm ready to move to a different game

Well then CMx2 is the game for you. Or do you mean something like Battlefield 2 or Grand Theft Auto or something completely different? Because you certainly won't find any other wargames like CMx2. Heck, you still can't find any wargames like CMx1 and the competition has had... what, 7 or 8 years to play catchup.

Sheesh... some people just like to make themselves disapointed by having unreasonable and unobtainable expectations. Oh well... some people like to create their own misery

Steve

[Runyan99]

BFC, why are you guys wasting so much time debating people who are commenting on a game about which they know almost nothing?

BTW - Glad to hear there is some form of campaign system. I didn't know that. Any improvement in this area over CM is a big plus for me.

[ September 07, 2005, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: Runyan99 ]

[Battlefront.com]

BFC, why are you guys wasting so much time debating people who are commenting on a game about which they know almost nothing?

Nah, it wasn't that much time. Maybe 10 minutes total. And I've been saving up some extra time each day knowing that sooner, much sooner, than later someone would say something silly like this. So now that its happened, and I've responded, the time to respond to unreasonable nonsense is just about used up

Steve

[Kellysheroes]

Originally posted by junk2drive:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pheasant Plucker:

It would have a lifetime of days instead of years like the old CM.

Where are all those game companies whose games are classics that have withstood the test of time? Answer = Gone

Companies don't survive unless they can sell more product. </font>