Was WEGO an afterthought?

[thewood]

I have been mulling this over since CMSF's release. Afterthought is too strong a word, but it looks to me like the real push was to make sure RT was in and then they either ran out of time for cleaning up WEGO or it wasn't a priority.

One piece to cite here are Steve's own comments from the thread talking about Target Light command and why they used that instead of the Main Gun option from CM1:

"1. 60 second turns, no RT option. Meaning, the game prompted you to revisit your orders every 60 seconds. Sure, you could forget to cancel an Area Fire order (I did it all the time ), but the game did inherently give you a reminder to reassess and cancel if need be."

I don't consider this the "damning evidence", but combined with the following:

- No Movement to Contact command

- No hull down command

- Hunt command now stops and cancels order

- initial lack of ability to chain key commands

- inability to hide at end of move

- Broken replays not showing actual ammo and crew status

- no ability to combine hide and arc commands for ambushes

- No TCP/IP for WEGO

- PBEM broken for a while and even now still having issues

- Lack of self preservation for light vehicles especially

Now if you primarily play RT, these don't seem like a big deal, but with 60 sec. of no interference, its a killer when all put together.

I also think that is why there is a big gap between lovers and haters. I wonder if the majority of people who love CMSF, play RT, and people that are diappointed play WEGO. I play both, and other than the LOS/LOF issues, I can get through a RT game without pulling my hair out, as long as its small. When I try WEGO, I end up shutting it off with 5 or 6 turns.

[M1A1TC]

Dont forget the inability to adjust the waypoints, without having to start all over

I only play WEGO versus AI, so yes, it's a huge dissapointment

[Panzer76]

I would say yes. Not a big deal for single player mode, but a game breaker for MP.

[thewood]

IMO, it is a big deal for SP also. Its the difference between being CM or being something like Squad Leader. A nice try, but no thanks.

[SlowMotion]

My guess is that some items of the list have more to do with lack of time to implement all CMx1 features than anything else.

Some things would be very useful to have even in RT mode, like adjusting waypoints and Move to contact. We'll see what 1.05 will bring.

[Dogface]

What I do not understand (as we revisit this topic yet again) is what is wrong with playing RT but pausing every 60 seconds, more or less to issue orders? In SP granted as PBEM is not RT and TCP/IP is RT but no pause? This would help players like M1A1TankCommander mostly as he only plays WEGO vs AI. ( I started on that but changed to RT + pause vs AI)

- No Movement to Contact command

Hunt does not work like this?

- No hull down command

Yes I agree this one bites. even in RT.

- Hunt command now stops and cancels order

I cant remember didnt the M2C command also do this?

- initial lack of ability to chain key commands

Cant you do this now? I just chained together move, fast, fire at different targets at each way point. cover arcs and hide.

- inability to hide at end of move

Huh? I just did that very thing 1 or more move type waypoints and then left click last waypoint and push the hide button.

- Broken replays not showing actual ammo and crew status

This bites also. And looks bad/funny.

- no ability to combine hide and arc commands for ambushes

Yes this sucks in WEGO, can be done in RT as long as you keep an eye on the ambushing units.

- No TCP/IP for WEGO

again Bites.

- PBEM broken for a while and even now still having issues

Dunno as I have not played PBEM yet.

- Lack of self preservation for light vehicles especially

Yes this one can be a scenario breaker.

- Dont forget the inability to adjust the waypoints, without having to start all over.

The inability to adjust waypoints does suck big big big time. Not quite so bad in RT but still does suck.

Any how that is my 2 cents on this issue.

[bigmac1281]

I've never played RT. I enjoy having to make crucial decisions one minute at a time, and live with the consequences.

Not to start a war between wego/rt players, but it's my opinion that people who hone their skills in wego will eventually be very good in rt, since they've learned their skill set on a very unforgiving platform. You can't make mistakes in wego. Everything needs to be done in time with everything else. Everything needs to be perfectly coordinated. No canceling an order if things start to go badly.

Anyway, that's completely off topic. Since I have never played RT, i suppose I have nothing to add.

Probably shouldn't even have written this. Oh well.

[thewood]

I can't believe anyone can ask why we play WEGO...one word...replays.

Also, I meant to say Squad Assault, not Squad Leader.

[DaveDash]

I feel it's more a time based thing actually to be honest and Real Time was thrown in as a way to cover up for the lack of a finished TacAI and other things that you are asking for.

E.G. The feeling I get is that the game was built around WEGO but they threw in a RT mode to cover up for many of the games release issues (that still remain).

The main reason I do not want to play RT is no replays. With WEGO you can examine what just happened over the last 60 seconds in detail and plan accordingly. With proper planning and learning to play around some of the games current quirks, you can be very successful. It also, for my personally, has a more 'immersive' feel of being the commander and issuing orders, then it's up to my men to carry them out.

[Sirocco]

I think 1:1 and RT were pretty much things that had to be done. WEGO - and I must confess to not having used it, RT with pause is my preferred option - if it falls short does so because of time constraints, IMHO.

[thewood]

Dogface, what I meant by initial was up to 1.04 it didn't work. Frankly I don't remember if it worked even in 1.04, its been at least a month since I even played and infantry battle.

As far as move to contact, you are correct in one way, but we bascially have a M2C, but no hunt, from a CM1 perspective.

This was not done to open the debate about RT vs. WEGO, but my trying to undestand how there can be two completely polarized views of CMSF. I wondered if the dividing line was RT vs. WEGO.

As far as these commands being useful in RT also, I definitely agree. But you can compensate for the lack of a lot of these features with micromanaging through pauses. In WEGO, it makes the game pretty frustrating. Without them in, you will basically be stuck with smallish, easy to manage battles without them, or a ton of pausing.

IMO, if they had scrapped WEGO, had replays, and workable pauses and some sort of PBEM system from the get go, I would be no where near as disappointed in game play as I am now. Yeah, some people would have screamed, but can't be any worse now.

My remaining hope is that the time spent on 1.05 is bringing WEGO up to CM1 standards, or really bulking RT up to the point we don't care about WEGO.

[H.W. Guderian]

Originally posted by thewood:

I can't believe anyone can ask why we play WEGO...one word...replays.

Also, I meant to say Squad Assault, not Squad Leader.

Thank you for stating the obvious (REPLAYS) before I did.

Also, thanks for the SA clarification . . . I was wondering what you were on about.

Back to your "us and them / love and hate" ponderings above - I've had the same thoughts . . . and wonder further about the role age / a past history of playing board games like Squad Leader (OR also maybe miniatures?) has in the RT / WEGO demographics?

Can someone who waited weeks next to the mailbox for their miniature Tiger tanks to show up ever really be satisfied without WEGO?

Can someone who was born with a DSL cable plugged into their heads downloading information and entertainment at the speed of light ever be satisfied without real-time action?

Possibly misguided questions?

[Hmmmm . . . what DID I ever do with those little Tigers?]

[Webwing]

--

RT with a replay function of max 60 seconds?

I'd love that.

--

[thewood]

My brother is visting this week and he is one of my regular CM1 MP opponents. He doesn't have CMSF. He played the demo and has spent the last three days playing my CMSF. I finally watched him play tonight. He says he likes RT, except no replay. As I watched him, he was almost literally pausing every 5 seconds. He says it was because, without the replay, he is worried he was missing something. He said it felt too much like work.

[C'Rogers]

Real Time was thrown in as a way to cover up for the lack of a finished TacAI

Nah, they mentioned real time a long time before the game was released.

On the like/hate issue, I don't think it is a WEGO/RT issue per say, though somewhat related. I think it is the level of scope you play. I don't care to do much micromanagement, rarely zoom in (and usually then for only graphics quality), and never pause. I expect people who play like that will tend to enjoy the game more (I also believe that is how Steve said he played).

[thewood]

I meant to ask Steve this, but never did. If you never zoom in and stay at a high level, what's the point of 1:1 graphics. That sounds like CM1 type playing to me.

I have to zoom in to keep my units from making completely boneheaded moves. For example, I know my Strykers won't try to protect themselves. Maybe that's why some people don't see all the issues others do.

[C'Rogers]

If you never zoom in and stay at a high level, what's the point of 1:1 graphics.

Well if you stay around the three/four view then you still get the 1 to 1 graphics pretty well and that is what I generally use. Though I will zoom in for a vehicle occasionally or just to watch the guys fire if no one is moving.

[James McKenzie-Smith]

H.W. Guderian, in answer to your question, "Can someone who waited weeks next to the mailbox for their miniature Tiger tanks to show up ever really be satisfied without WEGO?" I can say that the answer is yes, this gamer can live with RT.

I was a board and miniatures wargamer, and I also designed wargames, and wrote miniatures rules. Part of my struggle as a wargame designer was to make turn sequences that simulated reality as much as possible. Variations on IGOUGO were all that were possible, apart from double blind systems that were superficially similar to WEGO.

Practical WEGO was really only possible with computers; however, from my point of view as a wargmaer, it was only a step on the path to real time.

Does this mean that I think that CMSF RT is the final step in game design? Well, no. However, it more or less suits my own wargaming philosophies and tastes.

[hoolaman]

Originally posted by thewood:

I have been mulling this over since CMSF's release. Afterthought is too strong a word, but it looks to me like the real push was to make sure RT was in and then they either ran out of time for cleaning up WEGO or it wasn't a priority.

I think this assessment is pretty much correct.

However I am not sure their highest intention was to make sure RT *play* was in.

A design decision was obviously made very early in the process that the engine must be based on underlying RT. They must have seen more value in doing this than just to give players the ability to play RT. Future multiplayer options and ease of programming may have been high on the list. And I'm sure abandoning WEGO was never put up as a wise idea in the BFC team meetings.

Of course when time started to run short and the technical realities became apparent wrt TCP/IP, TacAI etc , WEGO seems to have been put on the backburner in favour of at least releasing *something*. I hope it will get more loving attention in the future.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by thewood:

I have been mulling this over since CMSF's release. Afterthought is too strong a word, but it looks to me like the real push was to make sure RT was in and then they either ran out of time for cleaning up WEGO or it wasn't a priority.

I don't know that it was a deliberate decision, but when the lead designer plays RT almost exclusively, and reportedly so do most of the beta testers, it was probably inevitable.

[Thomm]

With regard to 'hull down': with the current quality of LOF/LOS checks regarding terrain, is something like h.d. even existing?

Best regards,

Thomm

[H.W. Guderian]

Thanks for your personal POV James . . .

I must just be a control freak . . . the inability to "command in detail" a large force (like I feel you can with WEGO and in the past with board and table-top) and the inability to review in detail what happened to each unit (with Replay) is just not cricket for me . . .

Then again someone will surely point out that with WEGO we loose total control of all our units for 60 seconds at a time.

However, to me, this felt "real" and yielded that nail-biting tension every turn. "What the hell is happening out there? Get Lt. Stahler on the horn - if he's still alive!"

Possibly a poorly though-out impression that may or may not support my case for WEGO.

[Niessuh]

- No Movement to Contact command

- No hull down command

- Hunt command now stops and cancels order

- initial lack of ability to chain key commands

- inability to hide at end of move

- Broken replays not showing actual ammo and crew status

- no ability to combine hide and arc commands for ambushes

- No TCP/IP for WEGO

- PBEM broken for a while and even now still having issues

- Lack of self preservation for light vehicles especially

-No delayed orders based on unit experience

¿nobody misses that? I love trying to manage effectively those green buttoned T34 tanks

[thewood]

Yeah, that should have been one of the first ones. For all the fancy C&C stuff added, I see very little negative effect for poor C&C.

[Stirling]

Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

I don't know that it was a deliberate decision, but when the lead designer plays RT almost exclusively, and reportedly so do most of the beta testers, it was probably inevitable.

But those statements were made when WEGO was totally broken. RT was the only way to play.