Small Bone

[Battlefront.com]

Just thought I'd let you know that as of last night CM:SF is now both RealTime and WeGo Yup, WeGo was finished up last night and I've taken it for a quick spin already. It's pretty slick, but since it's pretty much what you've been playing for the last 7 years there isn't much more to say about it other than it's in and working.

Now Charles can get back to putting in terrain graphics and models so we can get you some screenshots

Steve

[Vanir Ausf B]

there isn't much more to say about it other than it's in and working.

Except for the inevitable questions regarding PBEM

[Battlefront.com]

Already expected, already prepared to ignore it

Awe heck... I'll at least say that we'll know fairly soon and so far we don't see any reason why it would be left out. However, that's what we've said since the very first day of the very first heated discussion, so I'm really not saying anything new.

Steve

[Vanir Ausf B]

Just don't forget to have the second player's computer generate the map this time around. :cool:

[Other Means]

Cool on all 3 counts.

Now, new TV or new PC? Decisions decisions...

[Other Means]

Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

Just don't forget to have the second player's computer generate the map this time around. :cool:

Could I ask why?

[Vanir Ausf B]

An old issue. BFC said it was too hard to fix CMx1, but they would do it different in CMx2. Just didn't want them to forget is all.

[Other Means]

Oh right. Fair point.

[Cpl Steiner]

Great news!

I too would be most pleased if PBEM was somehow made to work, even if it doesn't work very well (like you can send a turn but it's only 2 seconds long - God help us if I'm right!).

[Sequoia]

WeGo makes all us old guys happy (does dance and collapses on couch).

[kipanderson]

Hi,

All sounds very good.

I look forward to being able to use both WEGO and RealTime. I expect to use WEGO most of the time but can imagine the fun of using RealTime in smaller battles. In platoon sized games RealTime will be fun now and then.

My only concern with the underlying engine going RealTime was always the restriction on battles size that may result. I enjoy very small battles where every man counts…RealTime will be perfect for that. However I also enjoy the near operational size battles that CMBB could handle . Sadly for the first few years of the CMX2 I doubt they will be possible… until computers are more powerful…. due to the RealTime engine. Happily by the time an Eastern Front version of CMX2 is released computers will have advanced somewhat .

All good fun,

All the best,

Kip.

[Sgt Joch]

I don't remember if this was discussed, but is WEGO still one minute turns?

[Other Means]

Originally posted by Sgt.Joch:

I don't remember if this was discussed, but is WEGO still one minute turns?

I'm just <strike>talking out of my arse</strike> hypothesising but I'd imagine if you can get WEGO & RT going then any point in between may be possible - so set your own, maybe even vary the length.

OK, maybe not vary the length but certainly agree a length in the setup.

[Cpl Steiner]

Ever played the computer game "Space Hulk"? That had a neat idea that would work well for CM:SF. You could pause the action to give orders to your troops but you only had a limited amount of time to do so before the action started again. The amount of time you had was dependent on how long you had allowed the game to run in real time before hitting the pause button.

This means you have to anticipate when things might go wrong and resist the temptation to hit pause every few seconds to micromanage everything. It also has effects such as making you give orders for your men to hold their positions just to give you some thinking time.

In CMx1, the commander (you) is able to think up complex plans in zero time. In reality, the men on the ground would have to hold position from time to time whilst the "old man" decides what they should all be doing.

[Battlefront.com]

Vanir,

BFC said it was too hard to fix CMx1, but they would do it different in CMx2.

Well, it is different in CMx2... there are no computer generated maps at all, for either side, ever. This has been mentioned in brief before, but apparently you missed it. Probably others have too, so I'll restate it.

Computer generated maps were extremely difficult to program in CMx1, even with its fairly low terrain resolution. For CMx2, with its much higher terrain resolution, we decided that it was an unwise investment of our time. We felt the likely outcome was a month of our time pissed away for an end result that not many people would be happy with.

What happens now is sorta like CMx1 in that you can import maps without units. Unlike CMx1, you can now do this for Quick Battles. This is the more traditional way of playing MP games and there obviously is a reason for it from a development standpoint. This means "Scenario Depot" type websites will want to have a section for Quick Battle Maps where people make maps for QBs. CMx2 has some other neat features that will make it much easier to know what you're about to load before you load it. More on that another time.

steve

[Battlefront.com]

Turn length is set to 1 minute right now. There is no technical hurdle to changing this, though we might not include options to do so. We'll see about that much later on.

As for making RealTime have turn based qualities to it, we've long thought about this and never liked it. For a single player game it can work out pretty well, though very gamey, but for a two player game it has so many downsides that we've decided to not touch it with a 10' pole.

Steve

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

What happens now is sorta like CMx1 in that you can import maps without units. Unlike CMx1, you can now do this for Quick Battles.

Apparently, someone hasn't played CM quick battles since CMBO...

Steve, could you leave the map format open so that fans could develop their own map generators? With the extremely small tiles and if the new map editor is as bad* as the old one, it's going to take more time than before to build a nice map (especially larger ones eg. for tank combat).

*no zoom features, no adjustable large brush size, no flood filling, no copy-paste, no 'import heightmap'...

[ October 01, 2006, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: Sergei ]

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Well, it is different in CMx2... there are no computer generated maps at all, for either side, ever. This has been mentioned in brief before, but apparently you missed it. Probably others have too, so I'll restate it.

Yeah, I missed that. I can't find mention of it with a search. But it is disappointing. I played QBs on random maps almost exclusively because of the uncertainty factor, i.e. you couldn't cherry pick your force to fit a map.

I guess I'll get used to it.

[Battlefront.com]

Sergei.

Apparently, someone hasn't played CM quick battles since CMBO...

Nah, someone just forgot that it was added as a QB option My memory said it was just an Editor feature.

Steve, could you leave the map format open so that fans could develop their own map generators?

Possibly.

*no zoom features, no adjustable large brush size, no flood filling, no copy-paste, no 'import heightmap'...

It has everything on this list, and more, except for "import heightmap". By the latter I assume you mean some sort of importing of real world map data?

Vanir,

Yeah, I missed that. I can't find mention of it with a search. But it is disappointing. I played QBs on random maps almost exclusively because of the uncertainty factor, i.e. you couldn't cherry pick your force to fit a map.

I agree, since this is pretty much the only way I played CM at all. I rarely played premade scenarios. So for sure random map generation wasn't left out due to a lack of internal enthusiasm for the feature. It was simply a recognition that the bang for the buck (or "result for effort" if you like that better) equation was very unfavorable.

Steve

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />*no zoom features, no adjustable large brush size, no flood filling, no copy-paste, no 'import heightmap'...

It has everything on this list, and more, except for "import heightmap". By the latter I assume you mean some sort of importing of real world map data?</font>

[Stirling]

Well, that's a deal-breaker for me.

It's not unexpected, though. Random maps seem to be a thing of the past now for most genres.

I guess I'll delay my purchase to see if any user-made support materializes. It would have to be huge, though, to make up for no random maps.

[Kineas]

Random maps need not to be randomly generated but randomly picked from a builtin list. (Like in the Rise of Legends RTS game). This way you can randomize the outcome so there would be no cherrypicking for a known map.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by Kineas:

Random maps need not to be randomly generated but randomly picked from a builtin list. (Like in the Rise of Legends RTS game). This way you can randomize the outcome so there would be no cherrypicking for a known map.

Maybe instead of selecting one map to play, you could have the option of selecting several maps and the game picks of those at random.

I like it. What say you, BFC dudes?

[Battlefront.com]

Sergei, we have to limit the features of the Editor at first. It is, already, far easier to use than the CMx1 Editor and far more powerful at the same time. The sort of stuff you're asking for is icing on the cake stuff that we will likely add over time. Personally, I hope that we can allow for direct 3rd party digital map importation (there is a specific formt we have our eye on).

Kineas,

I guess I'll delay my purchase to see if any user-made support materializes. It would have to be huge, though, to make up for no random maps.

Looking at the support for CMx1, I personally have no fears that the support for CM:SF and its sequels will be nothing short of "huge".

BTW, few games have supported randomly generated maps. The last time I remember it being remotely close to "common" was in the early SSI days when they were doing 48k games for things like Apple II, Atari, and the 286 line of Intel systems. Since then it's been pretty uncommon to find such a feature. The reason for that is pretty obvious

Kineas,

Random maps need not to be randomly generated but randomly picked from a builtin list. (Like in the Rise of Legends RTS game). This way you can randomize the outcome so there would be no cherrypicking for a known map.

This is something we hope to support after the release. It is not simple to do from a logistics standpoint, but it is a very good way to go.

Maybe instead of selecting one map to play, you could have the option of selecting several maps and the game picks of those at random.

It's a possibility.

Steve

[PSY]

I assume real-time is pausable? Can we give orders while paused when playing single player?

Also can we switch between real-time and turn-based. Say for example using real-time until contact with the enemy and then switching to turn-based. Or maybe using turn-based and then switching to real-time to speed things up after most of the enemy has been destroyed?