Brink of civil war in Lebanon

[Gpig]

Well, THAT was a let-down.

I was enjoying a debate (or thought it was a debate), but it's not that now. Sad.

Thanks for holding up your end of the reasonable discourse, Steve (and others). You tried.

LoneSyrian, please come back to the table with a willingness to honestly examine any Sunni culpability, as we are willing to admit our own failings (as the "west"). Otherwise there can be no learning here. And I LOVE to learn.

Gpig

[ December 04, 2006, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: Gpig ]

[Battlefront.com]

Homo ferricus,

hmmm, it seems that for the most part, Steve's arguments have been logical and are supplemented by plenty or historical information, while LoneSyrian's seem to be vigorous propaganda and drug-induced ramblings about the glory of Sunnis, with nearly no regard for a decent and straightforward counter to Steve's points.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that has noticed this

Yes, sadly LoneSyrian is not interested in an honest discussion. He'd rather just prove that the Infidels will die and Sunnis will rule the Middle East. Sunni über alles!

Well, since LoneSyrian clearly doesn't want to have an intellectual discussion, I guess I'll resort to a bit of tongue in cheek sarcasm since that's about all that that can be done at this point...

LoneSyrian,

Here’s some “introspection” for ya, in the last week alone, a downed F16 with its pilot KIA, a downed Chinook with 4 fatalities and a total of 20 American soldiers KIAed, all courtesy of the Anbar Sunni resistance.

Actually it's 14, but even at 20 that isn't very impressive for an entire week. Heck, the brave Sunni Resistance's killed 12 Shites riding in a mini-bus on one day alone. Yup, 11 Nov 2006 the brave and morally superior Sunni Resistance fighters struck a mighty blow against the American Imperialists by slaughtering a bunch of unarmed men, women, and children on their way from Diwaniya to Baghdad. Granted, it is a lot easier to kill unarmed men, women, and children driving along a road totally unprotected by military force, but surely the honorable and noble Sunnis can be proud of their glorious victory in the battle against the military might of the US forces! Just think of the damage to the US military power a few more tens of thousands more murdered civilians will have on the ability of the US to conduct military actions in Al Anbar.

Crush Sunnis? Iraq's Anbar is crushing the very fabric of the entire US of A, it has polarzied your population, FUBARed your internal balance of power,

Er... it's called Democracy. Look it up in the dictionary sometime. Changing political leadership is actually seen as a positive thing, otherwise we live under a tyranical dictatorship like your country.

cheated you out of $300 billion of tax dollars,

Don't give yourself too much credit over there. Our government is perfectly capable of cheating us out of our hard earned money even without this war. They've got a few hundred years of experience doing that, nothing new here.

relegated your superpower status,

Still have it. A bit tarnished and in need of a good shine, but we're still Top Dog (for now).

beset your administration with a most embarassing domino effect a la Rumsfeld and Bolton.

Again, this is Democracy in action. We've suffered through morons before and we'll suffer through them again. Your leaders, on the other hand, stick around regardless of their abilities. That's called a Dictatorship. There is something to be said for consistency, but it's pretty much overrated.

Arabs, especially Sunnis don't feel the crush, I was in Kaaem recently and could only notice gloat and resolve.

I wonder if the dozens of Sunnis that are found tortured and executed in Baghdad pretty much daily gloating just before they were slaughtered? "Ah-ha! Our glorious Sunni Resistance fighters are liberating us from the oppressive Americans! Hey, someone's at the door. I wonder who that might be? At this hour of the night, I hope it's the Americans. Oh-oh... its not".

Yes, only 0.0000000303 of Sunnis would contemplate raping and burning a 14 year-old girl, and Marines consider rape a national sport best conducted in the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Okinawa, Anbar and Kuwait.

Wow.... can we at least round up that Sunni count to a single person? Thanks... I know Sunnis are used to working with pieces of people, but I am not.

So if I get your point right, you are saying that a single Sunni man killed the hundreds of thousands of Shias, Kurds, and even Sunnis during Saddam's rule? Wow... no wonder why you think the US should fear the Sunnis. If the Marines ever ran into that guy, and were unarmed, I shudder to think what would happen!

BTW, I guess someone should have told Aministy International that Sunnis would never do such terrible things. Maybe they wouldn't have wasted their time documenting all the so called "rapes" they committed, not to mention the other atrocities done under Saddam's rule:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engMDE140082001?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES%5CIRAQ?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES%5CIRAQ

Here's an excerpt:

Some women have been raped in custody. They were detained and tortured because they were relatives of well known Iraqi opposition activists living abroad. The security authorities use this method to put pressure on Iraqi nationals abroad to cease their activities. For example, on 7 June 2000 Najib al-Salihi, a former army general who fled Iraq in 1995 and joined the Iraqi opposition, was sent a videotape showing the rape of a female relative. Shortly afterwards he reportedly received a telephone call from the Iraqi intelligence service, asking him whether he had received the ''gift'' and informing him that his relative was in their custody.

And from another report:

The Government of Iraq systematically used rape for political purposes. The Mukhabarat Technical Operations Directorate videotaped the rape of female relatives of suspected oppositionists and used the tapes for blackmail or coercion. This method of coercion took advantage of the stigma attached to victims of sexual violence in traditional Iraqi society - in which rape dishonours a whole family and victims of rape can be beaten or killed by their relatives to wipe out the stigma - to inhibit oppositionists from reporting the abuse. To extract confessions from male prisoners, their female relatives were taken into custody, and then tortured, raped, or even killed in front of the prisoners. Women suffered severe psychological trauma, unwanted pregnancies, and miscarriages after being raped by Iraqi security forces or soldiers.

Man, that one Sunni must have some real problems, eh?

Rape to Muslims is the sewage of sewages.

Well... if the sewer fits...

Why shouldn’t I put the superiority and morality of the Sunni warrior on a pedestal, if Steve keeps purifying, aggrandizing and massaging US intensions and ends in Iraq.

Purifying? Hardly. I just said the Soldiers and Marines responsible for the acts you brought up should be tried for Treason and promptly executed. You, on the other hand, seem oblivious to the fact that for every 1 armed US soldier the Sunnis have killed they have slaughtered (conservatively) roughly 100 unarmed civilians. And that's just recently. Think of the hundreds of thousands that were murdered, raped, gassed, tortured, and otherwise made quite miserable when the Sunnis ran things.

Cut it any way you like...

Grand Solution? Constructive Chaos and mayhem. One Bush doctrine that’ll work here. Leave, let the Arabs and Iranians gouge away, Iraq’s demographics are too populace for the size of that country anyways, the cancellation of a mill or two Shiites would revive the country’s economy.

So you are proposing genocide for the Shias to make life easier for the Sunnis? Wow... where in the Koran does it say that's something Allah would smile upon? I must have not heard about that yet. Sheesh... and you're criticizing my government and way of thinking.

We’ll return the favor in a few years by winning and stabilizing Iraq so you can have oil @ $25 again.

Oil will never get back down to that level. In case you haven't heard, it's running out faster than its being discovered. Your own country has been a net oil importer for a while, so for sure Syria doesn't have any oil to offer.

OK, to sum up...

LoneSyrian does not believe the Sunnis are capable of doing bad things, despite the clear record to the contrary. He also doesn't think that there is any sectarian killings going on in Iraq worth mentioning. Because if there were, then he'd have to explain how Sunnis could be involved in such things without actually "contemplating" them. Apparently the only thing wrong in Iraq is the American presence. Oh, and the Shittes, of course. But although no Sunni would ever contemplate horrible acts against other Humans, not to mention Muslims, they would like it if a couple million Shiites died off quite suddenly. Of course if the Americans could drop a couple of nukes Iran's way then perhaps the Sunnis wouldn't find the Americans such bad guys after all.

I think I got it all summed up well.

Now, for other Muslims out there... I apologize. I know full well that the vast majority of Muslims are just trying to make a better life for themselves. Unfortunately, not all.

Steve

[ December 04, 2006, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ]

[Battlefront.com]

Gpig,

Well, THAT was a let-down.

I'll say. I've had more enlightened discussions with Neo-Nazis. Shame, it started out better than most of those so I thought this one had promise to be productive.

Steve

[Stavka_lite]

This has been a very interesting "discussion." I have a B.A. in History focusing on Middle Eastern history and minored in Middle Eastern Culture. I did the unusual and did my studies from an Arabic point of view. As such I have tons of Syrian, Egyptian, Lebanese, Jordanian etc friends (and a few Iranians who are ardently not Arabic) who I still talk to on a regular basis and more than one has told me that Shias are suicidal and Sunnis are homicidal. In other words, Shias are willing to die for their faith and Sunnis are willing to kill for it. We are seeing this in Iraq.

I, for one, support the three state system The Kurds seem to be happy, and I am sure the Shias would be happy as well. I don't think that the Sunnis (read Baathists) would be happy without complete dominance over the world, so why is everyone in such in an uproar over this. I do acknowledge that we could be looking at another Lebanon in the Sunni area.

Neal

[LoneSyrian]

Originally posted by Grimm:

LoneSyrian,

Interesting debate. I'm curious as to why you chose to school in the US. Did you finish a degree here? Did you school elsewhere?

Fair first question, it may imply if LoneSyrian is so critical of the US, why then did he choose it as a venue for his studies? You’ve to understand 90s America was diametrically different from post new Millennium America. When I conducted my studies in the US, president Clinton was leading your country.

The Clinton era to many was one of the most peaceful, prosperous, tolerant and stable eras the US and its residents have known. Aside from Nixon, president Clinton was the only other US president who visited Damascus and undertook genuine efforts to instill peace in the region.

That peace didn’t prevail was due to the stupidity and short sidedness of the Syrian leadership back then, president Clinton went far and beyond the call of duty.

Syrians were fascinated with Clinton’s America, here you had an articulate, astute president who possessed sound economic judgment and knew exactly where he wanted to take his great nation. Not only that, Clinton cherished pussy more than Syrians do, and Syrian men loved him for it.

You had an exotic white house that hosted beautiful Washingtonian women and advocated sophisticated sexual séances, séances sporting contraband cigars amongst other contraptions. No Syrian ever understood why such acts triggered impeachment proceedings. The US boyz should’ve gotten their deserving president more pussy.

So in the Clinton era, this Syrian national had the luxury of choosing from amongst several American scholarship offers, as opposed to how deep a bug would be placed up his ass. Not only that, religious diversity and ethnicity were considered exotic back then rather than a disease, especially when the babes were concerned. Very few predicted the neoncons were a’comin’.

Since you asked, yes, I finished a degree in dentistry in the US, before that, I attended the University of Leipzig, Germany for my minor studies.

Originally posted by Grunt:

maybe one day the US Marines and their US Army brothers-in-arms will come visit Syria one day as well, and you can have a first hand crack at "wiping the arrogant smirk off" the US forces faces. Make sure you in good terms with Allah... first.

The Marines already have a minute contingent in Damascus. I live one block away from the US embassy and they’re all my friends. Not only that, I too hang out at the Bunker, a dive Damascus Marines frequent regularly. So I know all of them and can tell you all but one are democrats. Damascus Marines are good Marines.

If you mean a Marines’ visit a la Iraq, I’m an affluent Syrian civilian, I don’t have to endanger my family and loved ones by sitting around and watching your own kind scorch, slash, burn, rape, murder and incinerate. I’ll be watching you take a beatin’ and that smirk a’yours wiped from the Cafés of Blvd Saint Germain, Paris.

Moreover, I’m on very good terms with Allah, not only that, I’ll live long enough to piss on Grunt’s grave. So be good with your Rabbi too Grunt.

If the "Sunni warrior" is so superior, then how did US and UK forces get into Iraq in the first place? Should'nt have the Sunni warriors counterattacked and driven the US and UK all the way to the Gulf by now?

Give'em some time damn it, it's a super mighty army they're pushin' back, in fact, they're gonna one up you and drive you all the way back to ManureVille, Iowa. Patience grasshopper, patience.

[Moronic Max]

You had an exotic white house that hosted beautiful Washingtonian women and advocated sophisticated sexual séances, séances sporting contraband cigars amongst other contraptions. No Syrian ever understood why such acts triggered impeachment proceedings. The US boyz should’ve gotten their deserving president more pussy.

Okay, that was funny. Though I hesitate to apply the label 'beautiful' to Ms. Lewinsky.

[Wisbech_lad]

Just FYI, my family are sunni muslims from Indonesia, and couldn't give a flying monkey's about the arab sunni/shia civil war. Or the historic arab/ persian emnity

Although they do get upset about the rape and abuse of (sunni muslim) indonesian maids by arab sunni muslim families in Saudi, Gulf states etc.

[LoneSyrian]

Come ‘on Steve and minions, the level of debate can’t be serious, enlightening and objective 24/7. Steve’s entire company is about games and fun. Remember fun? We’re all a buncha thrill seekers here.

The only place a LoneSyrian can taunt a multitude of American army types without being carpet bombed to a pulp is online. The injection of a few radical, beyond the pale comments can only serve to spice up an otherwise too anal a thread.

Anyone who closely examines the “mill or two Shiite cancellation” comment will realize it was sarcastic to the core, although genocide has been very good to Americans, especially in Japan.

It’s not true that I don’t wanna engage in a serious discussion, I have and I do. But with Syria being surrounded by Israel, the US, Jordan and Lebanon, Syrians wanna have some fun too damn it. Plus, Steve is about to invade electronically with Abrams and the works.

I mean look at the disdain Steve has for the Syrian soldier, examine the graphic logo of CMS Shock Force, look at the American soldier, then look at the Syrian soldier. See? Notice how the American soldier is so erect and alert, then look at the Syrian soldier, he looks like a fagot with an extra RPG up his colon.

I by no means wish genocide on any folk, let alone from my own religion. Plus, measuring Sunnis by the conduct of Saddam and sons is like accusing all Americans of being Jeffery Dalmer. The Saddam regime was an agent of the devil, it will remain an aberration.

While Steve is busy demonstrating his grandeur and debating prowess, he completely overlooks the fact his chain is being yanked. Take a break Steve, you don’t have to be pretty and perfect every post you know, we like you the way you are.

Battlefront and its patrons have declared war on Syria, what’s strong with a sensible war of words prior to the commencement of electronic hostilities? This should make you wanna dream of kickn’ Syrian ass, for dreaming of winning and actually winning games are two distant cousins.

Lad,

just FYI that Saudi who raped your girlfriend is the 0.000000303 Sunni Steve talked about in the above post.

[Khane]

Originally posted by LoneSyrian:

I mean look at the disdain Steve has for the Syrian soldier, examine the graphic logo of CMS Shock Force, look at the American soldier, then look at the Syrian soldier. See? Notice how the American soldier is so erect and alert, then look at the Syrian soldier, he looks like a fagot with an extra RPG up his colon.

LOL

That's OK, he is not a Sunni but a Shia.

Khane

[Abbott]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

I'm glad I'm not the only one that has noticed this

Steve

Oh I think we all noticed Steve . You know they always said Saddam Hussein and his followers were nothing but gangsters. That’s the problem with having Gangsters in charge, they start believing their own bull****.

[Battlefront.com]

LoneSyrian,

It’s not true that I don’t wanna engage in a serious discussion, I have and I do. But with Syria being surrounded by Israel, the US, Jordan and Lebanon, Syrians wanna have some fun too damn it.

Well, that's good to hear.

Plus, Steve is about to invade electronically with Abrams and the works.

And the Syrians will electronically defend with Kornets. Judging by my abilities vs. RPGs, I think the little electronic Syrians don't have much to worry about.

I mean look at the disdain Steve has for the Syrian soldier, examine the graphic logo of CMS Shock Force, look at the American soldier, then look at the Syrian soldier. See? Notice how the American soldier is so erect and alert, then look at the Syrian soldier, he looks like a fagot with an extra RPG up his colon.

Now that is a tad bit in violation of the Forum rules ("fagot" is in the same vein as "towel head" as far as I am concerned), but I'll take it in the spirt it was intended and chuckle. We'd have put the Syrian guy in a better shooting pose, but it'd get in the way of the name. Yup, we compromised realism for marketing purposes

I by no means wish genocide on any folk, let alone from my own religion. Plus, measuring Sunnis by the conduct of Saddam and sons is like accusing all Americans of being Jeffery Dalmer. The Saddam regime was an agent of the devil, it will remain an aberration.

Unfortunately, it is not an aberration. Not historically and certainly not regionally.

While Steve is busy demonstrating his grandeur and debating prowess, he completely overlooks the fact his chain is being yanked.

Hard to tell since you sound no different than the run of the mill Sunni in Iraq. It would be like me going to the Southern US and start talking about how great NASCAR is and how the South will rise again. Depending on where I was people would either move away from me or buy me a beer, right after a good round of "Heeeeeeeeeel yah!".

just FYI that Saudi who raped your girlfriend is the 0.000000303 Sunni Steve talked about in the above post.

I'm still impressed with the stats of this one 0.000000303 Sunni. He really gets around and is really prolific.

Beheading Under the pretext of fighting prostitution, units of "Fedayeen Saddam," the paramilitary organization led by Uday Hussein, Saddam's eldest son, have beheaded in public more than 200 women throughout the country, dumping their severed heads at their families' doorsteps. Many families have been required to display the victim's head on their outside fences for several days. These barbaric acts were carried out in the total absence of any proper judicial procedures and many of the victims were not engaged in prostitution, but were targeted for political reasons. For example, Najat Mohammad Haydar, an obstetrician in Baghdad, was beheaded after criticizing the corruption within health services. (Amnesty International Report, Iraq: Systematic Torture of Political Prisoners, August 2001; Iraqi Women's League in Damascus, Syria)

Rape The Iraqi Government uses rape and sexual assault of women to achieve the following goals: to extract information and forced confessions from detained family members; to intimidate Iraqi oppositionists by sending videotapes showing the rape of female family members; and to blackmail Iraqi men into future cooperation with the regime. Some Iraqi authorities even carry personnel cards identifying their official "activity" as the "violation of women's honor." (U.S. Department of State, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices-2001, March 2002; Iraq Research and Documentation Project, Harvard University)

Torture The Iraqi Government routinely tortures and kills female dissidents and the female relatives of Iraqi oppositionists and defectors. Victims include Safiyah Hassan, the mother of two Iraqi defectors, who was killed after publicly criticizing the Iraqi Government for killing her sons after their return to Iraq. Women in Saddam's jails are subjected to the following forms of torture: brutal beatings, systematic rape, electrical shocks, and branding. (U.S. Department of State, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices-2001, March 2002; U.S. Department of State, Iraq: A Population Silenced, December 2002)

Murder In 1990, Saddam Hussein introduced Article 111 into the Iraqi Penal Code in a calculated effort to strengthen tribal support for his regime. This law exempts men who kill their female relatives in defense of their family's honor from prosecution and punishment. The UN Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women reported that more than 4,000 women have been victims of so-called "honor killings" since Article 111 went into effect. (UN Commission on Human Rights, Report of the Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women, January 2002)

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Stavka_lite,

Thanks for your thoughts. Saddly, neither Syria nor Iran see risk in what they are engaging in. The proxy war between them has already started. It will get far worse before it calms down. It is quite possible that one or the other regime won't survive it. Quite possibly neither will. One thing is for sure, the average Iraqi won't.

Steve

[MikeyD]

The best 'tutorial' I can suggest on regional conflicts is Thucydides "History of the Peoplonnesian War" written some 2400-ish years ago. First - and still the very best - objectively written military history. Gives you an idea of what great powers have to fear from cascading regional conflicts and what regional powers have to fear from being caught-up in greater conflicts. 'Great Power' Athens doesn't fare too well in either the description of their actions or in the eventual outcome.

[Imperial Grunt]

"The Marines already have a minute contingent in Damascus. I live one block away from the US embassy and they’re all my friends. Not only that, I too hang out at the Bunker, a dive Damascus Marines frequent regularly. So I know all of them and can tell you all but one are democrats. Damascus Marines are good Marines.

If you mean a Marines’ visit a la Iraq, I’m an affluent Syrian civilian, I don’t have to endanger my family and loved ones by sitting around and watching your own kind scorch, slash, burn, rape, murder and incinerate. I’ll be watching you take a beatin’ and that smirk a’yours wiped from the Cafés of Blvd Saint Germain, Paris.

Moreover, I’m on very good terms with Allah, not only that, I’ll live long enough to piss on Grunt’s grave. So be good with your Rabbi too Grunt."

-So you are saying that the Syrian Embassy detail is a complete abberation from the rest of the Marine Corps, especially since most of them are allegedly Democrats?

-And since you are an affluent Sunni, if your home country is invaded...your running to France. Now there is a true Sunni warrior.

-Good luck pissing on my grave. And I am not Jewish.

Anyways, I have to go back to reading the lastest Marine Corps doctrinal publication on "scorch, slash, burn, rape, murder and incinerate", it has just been revised. Maybe those Marines at the Embassy got a copy as well.

[Abbott]

The only place a LoneSyrian can taunt a multitude of American army types without being carpet bombed to a pulp is online.

This guy is funny.

[LoneSyrian]

Originally posted by Imperial Grunt:

And since you are an affluent Sunni, if your home country is invaded...your running to France.

No, I’ll wait for some hick, oakie, pedophiliac US commander to rape and burn my two precious toddlers.

Some twisted logic this Grunt has: ‘your country is being invaded and flattened, yet you’re trying to leave to save your family?’ ‘Are you outa you’re friggin’ mind?’ Grunt asks.

'Prove to this board you’ve moxy, stick around, sacrifice your children and die. Just like the half million Iraqis the Americans killed.' No **** Grunt.

Now there is a true Sunni warrior.

I never claimed I’m a warrior, I merely praised Iraq’s warriors, look at the record, I’m a dentist ya Grunt. The closest I may come to brutality is to accidentally pluck Grunt’s eye out with one of my instruments.

So damn friggin’ right, France and lavish livin’ it is, while the invading army breathes Napalm and sucks on dirt.

So you are saying that the Syrian Embassy detail is a complete abberation from the rest of the Marine Corps, especially since most of them are allegedly Democrats?

That’s what I’m sayin’, Iraq’s Marines bad, Damascus Marines good, because I personally know they’re good.

And I am not Jewish.

You sure come across as from the other church, nevertheless, my bad on this one.

[Homo ferricus]

um, sooooo...

excited about the game? After all, that is what the forums about, right?

[Battlefront.com]

Hmmm... LoneSyrian, you aren't setting a very good example here. Everybody has been quite polite and respectful to you, yet you are going on unprovoked tirades. I'm telling you, if you're trying to change people's minds that Syrians, Sunnis, or Middle Eastern Muslims in general are a bunch of irrational hotheads you're doing a pretty poor job.

I've cut you quite a bit of slack so far, but you're coming pretty close to getting booted off this Forum. Either knock off the trollish behavior and start acting like a reasonable person instead of an irrational child and you'll be welcome to stay. Keep going the way you're going and you'll be the first Middle Easterner that I've had to ban. And the Forum will be a less diverse, though more civil, place.

Personally, I would rather you stay, but the choice is yours.

BTW...

Just like the half million Iraqis the Americans killed.

Oooo... I'd love to see a source for that one! The most accurate body counts I've seen (i.e. independently verified deaths by 2+ sources) put the count at about 50,000. Probably 30,000 killed by Sunni Insurgents on purpose and the bulk of the rest by Shittes. They've been making up for the Sunni head start quite a bit. The US has certainly killed some too, but compared to the murderous rampage of your brother Sunnis... as I said before, it's like comparing a handful of sand to a desert. Not even in the same ballpark.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/

Oh, and what is it that Sunnis have against minibuses? They just killed yet another 15 unarmed Shitte workers in one yesterday. Whatever their reason for wanting to stop them at fake checkpoints and put a couple hundred bullet holes in them, you think they would at least ask the innocent people riding in them to get out before opening fire. A real warrior would.

Steve

[Moronic Max]

The most accurate body counts I've seen (i.e. independently verified deaths by 2+ sources) put the count at about 50,000.

Well, to be fair, that's not precisely what the IBC does. In their own words...

We have always recognised and made explicit that our media-derived database cannot be a complete record of civilians killed in violence, and have called for properly supported counts since the beginning of our own project. What IBC continues to provide is an irrefutable baseline of certain and undeniable deaths based on the solidity of our sources and the conservativeness of our methodology.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/editorial/defended/1.php

[Battlefront.com]

Moronic Max,

Well, to be fair, that's not precisely what the IBC does. In their own words...

What I said is true. This is the most accurate body count out there, as far as I know. That is not to say it is correct, just the most accurate. It's probably off by a factor of 2 according to some estimates. But that's just the thing... those figures aren't "counts" they are "estimates". Big difference.

In any case, I'd love to see LoneSyrian's source that shows the US forces have killed 1/2 a million Iraqis. If that were true, then the Sunnis would have killed about 5 million or more. 75 civilian bodies were collected yesterday alone, and not a single one of them was killed by US forces.

As an aside, three Syrians and an Iraqi were just sentenced to death for a failed attack on a US warship in Aqaba, Joradan:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/12/07/jordan.court/index.html

Steve

[MikeyD]

The number's from a large rigorous census done by the British medical journal the Lancette that got an estimated body count up past half a million. That was a mid-range estimate, they put the high-end number at closer to 800,000, i believe. The Lancette's actual phraseology was something like "Excess deaths due to the war". This includes children and elderly that die because the medical infrastructure has collapsed, malnutrition, disease, etc. But I believe the report said the majority of excess deaths were violent and at least until recently a majority were from coalition forces.

Throughout this war the U.S. has fought against using the same yardstick to estimate deaths from this war that was used to estimate deaths from Saddam's regime. Either beileve both or believe neither. Remember those B-52 strikes on the suburban outskirts of Bagdhad during the invasion? Let's not forget just how populous these cities were - Mosul with 2 million, Bagdhad with ...8? We weren't bombing uninhabited desert. If B-52s had cluster bombed... Chevy Chase Maryland on the outskirts of Washington for instance, how many casualties do you think would've resulted then?

There's a reason why Bush is frantically buying-up property in Paraguay for safe-haven exile.

[ December 07, 2006, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[Imperial Grunt]

Originally posted by LoneSyrian:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Imperial Grunt:

And since you are an affluent Sunni, if your home country is invaded...your running to France.

No, I’ll wait for some hick, oakie, pedophiliac US commander to rape and burn my two precious toddlers.

Some twisted logic this Grunt has: ‘your country is being invaded and flattened, yet you’re trying to leave to save your family?’ ‘Are you outa you’re friggin’ mind?’ Grunt asks.

'Prove to this board you’ve moxy, stick around, sacrifice your children and die. Just like the half million Iraqis the Americans killed.' No **** Grunt.

Now there is a true Sunni warrior.

I never claimed I’m a warrior, I merely praised Iraq’s warriors, look at the record, I’m a dentist ya Grunt. The closest I may come to brutality is to accidentally pluck Grunt’s eye out with one of my instruments.

So damn friggin’ right, France and lavish livin’ it is, while the invading army breathes Napalm and sucks on dirt.

So you are saying that the Syrian Embassy detail is a complete abberation from the rest of the Marine Corps, especially since most of them are allegedly Democrats?

That’s what I’m sayin’, Iraq’s Marines bad, Damascus Marines good, because I personally know they’re good.

And I am not Jewish.

You sure come across as from the other church, nevertheless, my bad on this one. </font>

[Peter Cairns]

The study wasn't done for the Lancet, only published in it.

Peter.

[Moronic Max]

What I said is true. This is the most accurate body count out there, as far as I know. That is not to say it is correct, just the most accurate.

Ah. I overlooked that. You're quite right.

The number's from a large rigorous census done by the British medical journal the Lancette that got an estimated body count up past half a million. That was a mid-range estimate, they put the high-end number at closer to 800,000, i believe. The Lancette's actual phraseology was something like "Excess deaths due to the war". This includes children and elderly that die because the medical infrastructure has collapsed, malnutrition, disease, etc. But I believe the report said the majority of excess deaths were violent and at least until recently a majority were from coalition forces.

Their estimate was that 650k +/- 260k Iraqis had died as a result of the war; that it was 95% certain the number of deaths fell in that range, but it was most likely that it was on the 650k number. It's worth keeping in mind that 'excess deaths' makes no distinction between combatants and noncombatants.

31% of 'excess deaths' were caused by coalition forces; not insignificant by any means, but also not a majority. It's also impossible to determine what percentage of those deaths were 'legitimate' kills and what percentage were civilians.

You're correct in stating that most of the deaths were violent.

I've yet to encounter any compelling criticism of the study, though I'd welcome links if anyone's got 'em.

[John Kettler]

I believe some of you will find the entries from November 27-30, 2006 to be both topical and relevant. They include key resignations among U.S. commanding generals, some unusual perspectives on the forces responsible for many of the civilian deaths since the U.S. invaded Iraq, the Big Lie we're told about AQ's money supply and why, the incredible scale of real WMD related illicit transfers, and a devastating guest piece by federal 9/11 whistleblower Sibel Edmonds on how U.S. policy in Turkey has been turned inside out to serve corporate interests at the expense of the public. Much here to ponder! Info is from investigative reporter Wayne Madsen's site.

http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/

Regards,

John Kettler