MGO Exclusive Developers Diary For Combat Mission Barbarossa to Berlin

[CSO_Sulla]

Hia Guys,

MGO has just posted an exclusive developers diary for Combat Mission Barbarossa to Berlin. It gives a great insight into the making of various aspects of the latest CM.

You can find the article here: Developers Diary For Combat Mission Barbarossa to Berlin

MGO will also shortly be bringing you a detailed preview of Airborne Assault -Red Devils Over Arnhem. We will be doing as much as we can to promote BattleFront and all of its games. Hope that you all enjoy the diary.

If any of you have a CM Mod site that needs hosting or have a fan site MGO are very happy to host any quality mod sites. We have just added a new (for MGO) mod site The CM Depot to MGO's hosted sites.

Also if any of you have a mod site or fan site and could provide a link either text or banner to MGO we would really appreciate it

Regards

Shaun Wallace

[Jev.Dk]

Great diary. Thx for the link... and Lol

Steve as the evil Dr. No

[Mord]

The part about the sounds is very interesting. Alot of people were hoping for more audio immersion and man it sure sounds like there is gonna be some. Very Exciting!

Mord.

[Panzer Leader]

Wow, very interesting! Gee, I wish we had more info about exactly how rarity is going to work. Steve's bit made me only more curious:

German Rifle Company

Base Cost = 120 * 100% * 100% * 1 = 120 points

German SS Engineer Company

Base Cost = 140 * 100% * 195% * 3 = 468 points

German SS Rifle Company

Base Cost = 140 * 100% * 195% * 1 = 273 points

Romanian Rifle Company

Base Cost = 80 * 186% * 197% * 1 = 293 points

Again, the math I used is probably not very good for playability reasons, but it does illustrate what I am trying to show here.

Reading those point totals (and correlating them to the other rarity-within-division-factors posted), I freaked out when I saw the HUGE and I mean HUGE difference in prices for less common units. An engineer company at 468 points?? Wow, cross that off the list of possible units. At first I thought that this rarity would make all but the most common units all but playable in a QB, but then the last line seems to say that the math is not accurate and that the figures are unplayable. I wonder though...

You see, in the "System" (which I have never played but heard about) units are bought exclusively by the "Bang-for-buck" method, but even in a friendly game, some restraint must be used in order to have a competitive match-up. How wil anyone ever have anything but the commonest units? I mean, even a 10% jump in cost would cause someone to pause. "Hmm I could get an MG tean for that" but WOW 400% increase?!?! Impossible! Please tell me that these figures were for illustration only and not similar to actual rarity price increases.

It will kill QBs. I am sure that Steve and Co. knows more than me how to keep a game playable, so really all I'm asking for is some assurance, right?

[Wolfe]

Originally posted by Mord:

The part about the sounds is very interesting. Alot of people were hoping for more audio immersion and man it sure sounds like there is gonna be some. Very Exciting!

Yes, definitely. Adding more incidental sounds to the background can have a huge impact on immersion, but it's also really easy to over-do it. Subtlety is the key for many of the movement sounds (don't make it too loud or too constant - hearing a twig break every half second of movement through woods would get old real quick).

And is that a listing for Cavalry I see? Didn't think Cav (mounted or even unmounted) was going to make it in?

Great interview. Thanks!

- Chris

[ May 07, 2002, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: Wolfe ]

[Panzer Leader]

By Jove Wolfe! I think you're right! Rumanian anmd Italian! Wow, but they must be unmounted. Cool anyway though. Makes me happy.

[Michael Dorosh]

Panzer Leader! Have some respect - they are Romanians, not Rumanians...I see BTS got THAT right too....impressive!

[russellmz]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Panzer Leader! Have some respect - they are Romanians, not Rumanians...I see BTS got THAT right too....impressive!

i see someone is getting a free copy of cmbb cause their model got picked! congrats.

[offtaskagain]

Hah! Peng made it into an article.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by russellmz:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Panzer Leader! Have some respect - they are Romanians, not Rumanians...I see BTS got THAT right too....impressive!

i see someone is getting a free copy of cmbb cause their model got picked! congrats.</font>

[Brian]

Mmmm, raises an interesting question, perhaps one some people might not like to contemplate. How dependent is BTS on Charles's expertise at programming? What would happen if he (heaven forbid it) dropped dead, tomorrow? Would BTS be able to survive and move forwards?

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by panzerwerfer42:

Hah! Peng made it into an article.

As is both right and just.

And notice they were advised to avoid us.

I find this sort of thing truly gratifying.

[Mattias]

Panzer Leader

I was thinking the same thing, that we would be looking at cost increases on par or a bit over those we see today for different experience levels, up and around 100% at the most.

It'll most certainly gear "competitive" QB ME's towards the statistically most prevalent units

Or more likely, these games will be played without using this rarity model.

Or is this were the random model kicks in, making "rarity inflated" units, randomly, affordable?

If not I am hard pressed to see who will ever play by the system. I love diversity, odd and interesting units but against a human, and indeed often the AI, there is just no margin for satisfying that interest in the face of a run of the mill, cost effective, force.

- Ah, well, this has been discussed in numerous threads before and I don't know enough to harp on, it'll be good in the end I'm sure

M.

[ May 08, 2002, 07:07 AM: Message edited by: Mattias ]

[Mesk A. Lin]

Charles is god

[Ex Bellator]

Very good article, but I must admit to being confused by the rarity system as well. I'd have thought that the simplest way of doing it would be to just do the first part of the equation shown - I.E. in a QB you get a % chance of a unit being available for selection on your purchase list.

I don't see the need for a cost multiplier at all, as another poster said, who is going to buy one infantry company of any type when it costs 3 times as much as another.

Hopefully someone will point out the error of my ways at any moment....

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

It will kill QBs. I am sure that Steve and Co. knows more than me how to keep a game playable, so really all I'm asking for is some assurance, right?

From the article:

Assume this example covers ONLY a non-computer selected Force of Type Combined Arms for the South Region, June 1942 with no Nationality specified and Fixed Rarity in place.

My emphasis added.

It was always understood that fixed rarity would essentially make only the most common units viable in a game. That's why the variable (is that the term?) rarity option is going to be far more popular with QB players. Fixed rarity is too predictable, IMO, but its there for those who want it.

[ May 08, 2002, 04:46 AM: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]

[Warphead]

Rarity is optional! This was said a thousand times already. You just have to talk with your opponent what rules will be used before you start playing. Absolutely no difference from a CMBO IP or PBEM game today.

[Splinty]

IIRC they said the numbers used were just an example.

[Mattias]

Yes, yes, yes but the numbers were big enough to cause a bit of a reaction, rational or not

M.

[ May 08, 2002, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: Mattias ]

[Ex Bellator]

It's not the numbers per se, it's the idea of charging extra for rare units and therefore ruling them out of most peoples force selections anyway.

A simple availability 'dice roll' to give them a chance of appearing on your selection list seems more logical.

If they appear and are affordable then you will see them occasionally in QB's. If there is an extra inflated loading over and above what you would expect to pay for a slightly more effective unit, then most people will never buy them.

That's how it seems at the moment, but I'm sure BTS will be along to explain shortly...

[Panzer Leader]

Well, I really hope the variable rarity system can bring a few of those prices back down to earth. I like QB's and I like the idea of rarity - no more King Tiger vs Firefly games, but really, an armoured car (Recon) being over twice its point value? A flamethrower (engineer) - already of dubious value, so out of this world in cost as to make it impossible to play. Even a PAK gun (Heavy Weapons) were fairly rare in the above chart. I just don't understand...

And as for those ROMANIANS, already a sad lot, will anyone EVER buy at 293 points a unit barely worth 80? I was under the impression that uncommon units might be 10-15% higher while the REALLY rare ones would be up to 100% higher, with 15-30% being the general margin. That seems workable, but this??

And isn't the whole idea of a point system there to augment quick-battles? Does this system do anything besides make everything except regular troops too expensive? Would that be realistic?

[James Crowley]

In QBs does the computer pick forces by cost values? If it does, then rarity as described, could have a huge impact on final selections.

For those of us man enough to play QBs as nature intended (computer picked forces.) this could mean little or no rare units ever. :eek:

If, on the other hand, computer picks are, or will be, based on % chances, then no problem. Presumably, with fixed rarity, a unit that has a 7% chance to appear will only ever be picked seven out of a hundred times; with variable rarity that percentage chance may vary between, say, 3 & 10 %. That would seem fair.

Obviously "self-pickers" (have you no shame!)need to be controlled by cost, in an attempt to conform to historical reality.

Still, a bit more explanation on this topic would be very welcome.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by Rex_Bellator:

A simple availability 'dice roll' to give them a chance of appearing on your selection list seems more logical.

If they appear and are affordable then you will see them occasionally in QB's. If there is an extra inflated loading over and above what you would expect to pay for a slightly more effective unit, then most people will never buy them.

I made this exact same arguement to Steve over a year ago. Let's just say he didn't agree. I don't like the idea of the unit price being modified by something other than capability. It's like a desecration or something I tried to find the thread where I discussed this with Steve, but it appears to be one of those the search engine always fails to find.

I'm sure BTS will be along to explain shortly...

Don't hold your breath as they have spent quite a lot of time explaning it in the past. For a fairly detailed rundown of how it works, and BTS's reasoning behind why they did it the way they did, read THIS.

[ May 08, 2002, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]

[M. Bates]

For obvious reasons no one knows exactly how the proposed system will actually "play" so we should reserve judgement until then.

However, I get the impression that players will be tempted to buy mainly regular infantry along with lots of T34s or PIVs. This will give the most "bang for the buck".

I can't quite see the correlation between a "rare" unit and "expensiveness".

A unit is rare or common, that is acceoted, but why introduce price anomaly.

There might be better ways of penalising rare unit purchases using the existing points system that does not involve making rare units more expensive.

Burger King restaurants are rarer than McDonalds, but the hamburgers cost the same.

People with ginger or red hair are "rare" but having red hair does not make them special.

[ May 08, 2002, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: M. Bates ]

[Panzer Leader]

OK, I have refreshed myself with that linked message, and now I can see the "writing on the wal" as Steve talked about "making gamey force selections so over-priced only a fool would buy them..." However, seeing the points, now, it is a shock. I truly seems impossible to get ANYTHING other than straight infantry.

It looks to me like even plain-jane tanks will be over-inflated by at least 2X.