Anyone else disapointed in Wheat field's cover ability?

[Pak40]

I can't remeber how good wheat fields were in CMBO but I am sure noticing how useless they are for any cover in CMBB. Hiding troops in them for hopes of springing ambushes is useless.

For example, I had a Schrek team hide in a wheat field waiting to ambush several tanks. My team never moved during the battle, so it should have recieved a cammo bonus that is described in the manual. The month was August, so the wheat should be at least two feat high if not higher. However, one of the tanks spotted the team at 180 meters(all wheat). How is this possible???

[Pzman]

I don't remember CMBO wheat being that great for hiding infantry of any kind; better then open terrain but not by much. I haven't really had units in wheat in CMBB yet, still waiting for full version, but I don't think it will have changed much if at all.

[Andrew H.]

Wheat's never been great for concealment, but I do think that concealment increases the further in the wheatfield you are. That is, if you are on the edge of the wheatfield, don't get much of a bonus, but if you're in the middle, you get a larger bonus (although still not a great one).

Still, 180 meters is a pretty good distance to see someone, even in a little cover. Could another unit have spotted you?

[Sabrewolf]

I'm disappointed with steppe terrain as well it is supposed to provide excellent concealment but hardly ever do so.

[geozero]

I think wheat and maybe even steppe terrain might work slightly if you're using the SNEAK command (I assume the infantry are hugging the ground in prone position).

I was able to move through a wheatfield unnoticed in sneak/hiding commands. And I would issue short commands, i.e. don't drag the target position too far out. With short hops of sneak and hide, it works pretty good.

[The ol one eye.]

I dont know how much protection wheat should give, but it should definetly give better concealment than it does now. In my back yard I have a small wheat field, in the summer it gets about 3-3 1/2 feet tall. Standing on level ground with it, you could have a orchestra sitting in it and you wouldnt know until they started to play. I was dissapointed with the concealment abilities for sure. However, area fire in wheat should tear up anything hiding in it anyways.

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by geozero:

I think wheat and maybe even steppe terrain might work slightly if you're using the SNEAK command (I assume the infantry are hugging the ground in prone position).

* chuckle *

Hide an AT Hunter team in Citadel, *during Setup Phase*, so it gets a foxhole, on the steppes. Harass approaching Axis with Rifles and MGs, so tanks button up, and hopefully are "distracted", although I don't know if that's modelled. And use EFOW.

Even then, I've had a 100% spotted/casualty rate for those teams, and I've tried it tried it tried it.

And you think I'm going to sneak?!?

I think that "steppes" to BFC must mean "really really short grasses". I could have sworn that they were "tall grasses", but I certainly haven't been there! So fine- we'll just play it the way it's modelled... NBD,

Eden

[Moriarty]

The manual does indicate that the amount of concealment available in wheat fields will vary depending on the season.

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Yeah. Where's the armor plated wheat stocks and the cloaking abilities fer god sakes? They don't even have the 1942 issue crop circles to beam out your wounded troops with. Stupid BTS!

[Shades]

I know it was just a move but in Saving Private Ryan, didn't a zook team hiding in wheat/tall grass take out a half-track at the same time Tom Hank's squad was hiding? You would think a small team could hide pretty good as long as the enemy did not have an elevation advantage.

[Warmaker]

Bah, that's what Hollywood says. Disregard it and carry on with the mission.

[Michael Emrys]

Pak40, did the enemy have any kind of height advantage? Almost any at all, including from the turret of a tank will permit LOS into wheatfields, tall grass, brush.

Michael

[ October 02, 2002, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[offtaskagain]

Originally posted by Shades:

I know it was just a move but in Saving Private Ryan, didn't a zook team hiding in wheat/tall grass take out a half-track at the same time Tom Hank's squad was hiding? You would think a small team could hide pretty good as long as the enemy did not have an elevation advantage.

I saw a pretty similar thing at a reenactment show. A fully running Stug, 2 SPW 251/1s and a mighty kubelwagen accompanying a platoon of infantry waited in a grass field to ambush a couple of Shermans escorted by a platoon or two of infantry. I watched the Stug drive into its ambush position and still temporarily lost sight of the thing from ~150m away. The two halftracks I totally lost sight of in the grass which was slightly above waist high. I located them later by the sound of their MGs. Fields of grass/wheat in CM offer way too little concealment IMHO. Actual cover from fire should be almost nil.

[Gryphon]

Perhaps BTS should patch this up?

I agree about the wheat. Been in France a couple of months back, walked past by a wheatfield and i couldn't see through it for more than 0.5 metres or so.

However in CMBO IIRC i could see dozens of metres through it.

Regards,

Gryphon

[Lah]

Pak40, you say the wheatfield was in August, maybe it had been harvested by then.... Scuse my ignorance of farming, just a thought though :confused:

[Guest Sgt. Emren]

Wheat's definitely a great place to hide, IRL that is! Should be so in CM as well.

BTS, please fix or do somefink!

[Fly Pusher]

I dont know about further east in the 1940's, but in central Germany now the wheat has almost all been harvested by mid August. Oil-Seed rape (Canola in US?) is earlier, barley & rye maybe a bit later.

If I had to hide in a wheat field I'd do it in June.

[tools4fools]

I was hiding some inf teams (LMG, tankhunter, sniper) deep in a wheat field (about 200m inside) and placed 3 T-34 outisde of the wheatfield.

The T-34 never spotted the inf teams when beeig outside of the wheatfield being buttoned up or not.

When I drove the T-34's around the wheatfield I got several spotting ranges: around 80m (tank was opened up, different speeds), around 20m (tank buttoned up).

But there seems to be no consistency since I had once an unbuttoned T-34 at hunt speed going downhill and it din't see a LMG team at 5 meters distance!

[murpes]

This may be covered in the manual, but I'm at work so I can't reference it right now. Does CMBB truly model a "wheat field" or just a "field?" I'm talking about the large stretches of unfarmed land with tall grasses, fairly irregular but not natural - probably farmed at some point so there aren't any trees. I always kind of assumed a wheat field was somewhere in between the two and played it as such.

[Sergei]

Well if the wheat is harvested, then that should be visible, too! ie. no wheat doodads. At least in CMBO the looks of the field depends on season, which indicates how good hiding it offers.

And children, remember: it can keep you unnoticed until you open fire, but then you're pretty much without protection. So be careful. And 'schrecks can set it afire.

[Pak40]

Originally posted by Moriarty:

The manual does indicate that the amount of concealment available in wheat fields will vary depending on the season.

This was in August so it should be almost at its highest.

And, no, there were no other units besides the tanks, the nearest one was 180 meters away.

Also, the land was completely flat.

[ October 02, 2002, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: Pak40 ]

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by Pak40:

This was in August so it should be almost at its highest.

And, no, there were no other units besides the tanks, the nearest one was 180 meters away.

Also, the land was completely flat.

Just out of curiosity, what level of FOW were you playing at?

[Boo Radley]

Originally posted by Sabrewolf:

I'm disappointed with steppe terrain as well it is supposed to provide excellent concealment but hardly ever do so.

Playing Citadel as the Russians, I had lots of stuff hidden out in the open on the steppe and my opponent wasn't able to spot me until he was right on top of me so long as I hadn't moved my units. One AT gun I rotated a bit while still out of LOS to his tanks and he was able to get a bead on that one after he crested the hill and yet the one next to it remained unspotted.

[Gaylord Focker]

Originally posted by Andrew Hedges:

Still, 180 meters is a pretty good distance to see someone, even in a little cover.

Not by a tank commander looking around with binoculars.

Did i mention i'm glad optics have been modeled?

[Treeburst155]

The manual does not mention "wheat". Those terrain tiles are called "grain fields" and represent just that. They are described as having "decent concealment".

Steppe terrain is described in the manual as "waist high grass which provides excellent concealment for hiding infantry....Steppe terrain can also be used to simulate high grass on any map".

It is good if the concealing nature of Steppe is less than "excellent" because the terrain is invisible above view two if the map consists of less than 50% steppe tiles.

Treeburst155 out.