Anyone else disapointed in Wheat field's cover ability?

[Sabrewolf]

Probably the steppe should be colored slightly differently, I keep mixing steppe and open ground

[Harv]

Depending on the growing conditions and weather for any given year, grain crops here can be from 6" high and very thin (this year) to as tall as 4' and almost thick enough to walk on (1996).

We have roughly the same crop growing conditions as a large part of the grain belt in Russia, so unless BFC has modelled the weather as it pertains to crop growth for any given year I think any arguments for or against the concealment value as it is now are moot.

[rune]

But Harv, how is your sheep crop growing?

Rune

[Harv]

I think I planted 'em too deep again. Haven't seen a thing come out of the ground except for one hoof back in June.

[Pak40]

Originally posted by Seanachai:

Just out of curiosity, what level of FOW were you playing at?

extreme. I'm playing the first Operation in the list, I forget the name.

[Pak40]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

The manual does not mention "wheat". Those terrain tiles are called "grain fields" and represent just that. They are described as having "decent concealment".

Steppe terrain is described in the manual as "waist high grass which provides excellent concealment for hiding infantry....Steppe terrain can also be used to simulate high grass on any map".

It is good if the concealing nature of Steppe is less than "excellent" because the terrain is invisible above view two if the map consists of less than 50% steppe tiles.

Grain fields, whether wheat, oats or barley, should offer decent concealment in the thick of summer. I'm assuming wheat is the dominate grain in Europe/Western Asia as it is in North America.

Supposing the "grain" is only 2 feet high, it should offer good concealment to any 2 man team wanting to stay hidden. I could lay down in this type of concealment and you would not be able to spot me from 10 feet away. From the cupola of a tank, maybe 30 meters...tops.

If you saw A Thin Red Line, then you know what I'm talking about. Different theater of combat but simular high grass conditions.

From your description of the Steppe tiles, it seems they have greater concealment than grain fields; yet I remember playing the demo Citadel scenario where my tank hunter and AT rifle teams were spotted from approximately the same ranges as the wheat (~ 180 meters).

Historically this does not hold up. Were not russian infantry able to cammoflage themselves in the plains well enough for German tanks to pass them, then attack from behind? Or am I watching too many Hollywood movies?

[Treeburst155]

You can mod the steppe tiles, but they won't appear anyway unless the map is more than 50% steppe.

Experimentation with foxholes shows that they appear at almost exactly the same distance when they are located in steppe, brush, summer wheat, and rocky terrain. These terrain features seem to provide only a small amount of concealment.

Unless you are tracing LOS through many of these terrain tiles you can just about consider them open terrain for all practical purposes, except for the new spreading fires.

Treeburst155 out.

[Renaud]

I haven't found the concealment values of the various terrain types to be a problem. As far as wheat fields (say 3' high summer wheat), keep in mind that it must be rather obvious if you have dug hasty foxholes into the field. From a tank turret or any other higher elevation you are going to view areas of missing stalks. Also, a squad of 9+ men crawling through the field lugging equipment is going to stir the stalks and if anything be easier to spot than in the open. But here I am splitting hairs...I hate that...you can come up with examples to prove any viewpoint in this case. Suffice to say that the way Charles and Steve envisioned the various terrain types, they assigned appropriate cover and concealment values to reflect that vision. Your vision may be slightly or wildly different.

yet I remember playing the demo Citadel scenario where my tank hunter and AT rifle teams were spotted from approximately the same ranges as the wheat (~ 180 meters).

I was able to regularly hide tank-hunter teams and not be spotted until the mass of tanks got within 40 meters. perhaps this is due to a command '?' bonus, can't remember. In any event, 40 meters was too far because you still can't reach them with hand-thrown AT stuff at that range. I found hiding in and then assault from trees to be more effective. But lets face it, infantry are the small fry in a wide-open steppe scenario.

Ren