Got it in Sacramento. Better game, but less relevant?

[Redwolf]

There are a number of polls on the web and usenet and all of them show that the Eastern front has the most appeal for wargamers.

Personally, I only got into the Western front because of CMBO.

[ September 24, 2002, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Andreas]

Did they have 1:25,000?

I must say I can understand the lament about the personal involvement a little. My grandfather was near Leningrad, and that certainly holds a lot of attraction for me, I buy divisional histories of units who fought in the area, I have contact with other Germans who's grandfathers served there, and it is the ara I am most interested in for scenario making. So I find that quite understandable.

On the other hand, when CMBO came out I knew next to nothing about the war in NWE 44/45, apart from that there was an invasion. I never really got that interested in the whole topic of WW2 after the age of 16, and before I came across CMBO. Because of CMBO, I started reading up on it. I have become reasonably well informed about the Commonwealth forces in the process, and I enjoyed learning all these things. I would expect that CMBB will have a similar effect on many, and that again the biggest beneficiaries of it maybe the bookstores, and not BFC.

I only really started readin on the war in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe about 3/4 of a year ago, when it became clear that in order to function on the beta team I needed that knowledge. Again, a tremendous learning experience, and one that was enjoyable in its own right.

What does this brain-dump signify? Well, not a lot really except that I think many people who have no connection to the east now have a good reason to get one, and in the process will come to appreciate CMBB as they did CMBO.

Regarding the mods - I think that has worked for CMBO, but the following/cult has been created, and will not go away if now there is less of a need for them, IMO.

[Stardog]

"little US adventure in westeren Europe right before the war ended" ??????

Panzer76 with all do respect I don't think anyones role or sacrifice in WWII needs to be marginalized.

My grandfather was a soldier in the 10th Mountain Division, Po Valley and I assure you there was nothing "little" about the stories I grew up hearing.

I understand if you prefer the Eastern Front but please do not downplay D-Day or the Western Front just to make your point.

Ardennes, Battle of the Bulge, little adventure?

I know we are talking about a game on this board here but lets not cross the line of respect when we are talking about what soldiers of that war gave whether it be Eastern front or Western Front, US or Russian or German for that matter.

Thank you

Todd

[ September 24, 2002, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: Stardog ]

[ParaBellum]

Hehe, this seems to be mainly a US problem.

A game about WWII were the US don't play the main role? WHAT?? But, but...

I rememember all the discussions about the flightsim "Il2 Sturmovik". A truely outstanding sim covering the eastern front, but many US guys constantly begged for P-51s and P-47s.

I have to say that I think the "...if it ain't american it ain't interesting..." attitude is quite narrow-minded IMHO.

Hey, time to broaden your horizont!

Although I can understand that some may not feel too comfortable with languages they don't understand. On the other side I really like to listen to the russian voices, and I think I already understand some of them. I'm sure someone will post a translation of the russian voice files soon.

[Andreas]

Forgot to add - Tom, I find the idea of using English voices with German/Russian accents midly offensive. That is bringing down the game to the level of 'Allo Allo'.

A desire for English voice-overs I can understand. A desire for English voice-overs with cheesy foreign accents I can't. I don't have a German accent when I speak German, you know

[ParaBellum]

Andreas ,stop boasting about your english and send me a turn!

[Barrold]

While I respect your opinion Franko, I think that if you are looking for Ironmen, it is to the East that you must look.

This is not to discount the efforts of any of the Allies since each member had unique and substantial contributions, but even Churchill admitted that the Soviets tore the guts out of the Wehrmacht.

The scale of the conflict along with its importance demands that it be studied more in relation to the coverage of the Western Front. Where is the OstFront Stephen Ambrose to mess up some facts, but yet popularize the subject to new audiences? I am only half in jest there.

To finally have a great game that does the arena justice is a real treat but one does not have to afficianado of the GPW to get enjoyment playing a superb game. Even if you have to think of them as Galactic Rangers vs the Alien Scum from Planet Bongo.

I think you'll need the clown tank mod for that though.

Lastly I am going to disagree with Berli in his statement about which front was presented first.

Personally I am glad that the BFC team broke their teeth on the system with CM:BO and were able to utilize this experience and time to make the next game what it is.

I am of the hope that the engine rewrite does not ignore all the research and experience with the GPW and concentrate all the excellent improvements on a small theatre.

Just my opinion.

BDH

[ September 24, 2002, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: barrold713 ]

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Forgot to add - Tom, I find the idea of using English voices with German/Russian accents midly offensive. That is bringing down the game to the level of 'Allo Allo'.

A desire for English voice-overs I can understand. A desire for English voice-overs with cheesy foreign accents I can't. I don't have a German accent when I speak German, you know

OK

Sorry about the "cheesy" accent suggestion. You have a good point there.

Having played Panzer Elite while enjoying playing the German side, (for a change) I sort of thought the "cheesy" german accent was entertaining. (In Panzer Elite)

That's me personally. JUST an opinion.

With regard to Native speaking voices for all the nationalities in CMBB I completely respect that was a GOOD decision and and the right way to do it. (no english available in the original release).

but I would be thrilled with an English speaking Mod sound file download and I would use it

ALL I'm am saying is that without any english speaking troops I am just feeling a little alienated from the battle. That is not really a bad thing, I pre-ordered the game like everyone else who is waiting here (HELL I would not want to miss out on the GREAT waiting period again , I enjoyed it so much the FIRST time with CMBO HUMOUR!).

Anyway the point that Lawyer made is still valid, I just don't feel the same "personal" connection with CMBB that I did with CMBO because of the voices and lack of American Troops, BUT it is for the Best that CMBB has Historically Accurate™ native speaking voices and I respect that.

"Originally posted by Lawyer:

snip

So Franko isn't questioning the relevancy of the Eastern Front in military orhistorical terms to me. I think he is just pointing out that a gamer needs a personal hook to a game to keep involved with it. CMBO certainly has that appeal for me. I'm not so sure about CMBB. But I'll give it a fair shot and try building some scenarios. I hope I can really get into it. But I'll still be playing CMBO too. "

I'm sure it will sell well and be wildly successful even if a few of us miss the personal connection with the American and English Speaker Allied units.

oh well

-tom w

[ September 24, 2002, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Cyrano]

I am an American who wishes he was born on the 4th of July.

I believe the Declaration of Independence is the only document to rival Magna Carta and the Petition of Right in the pantheon of scraps of paper defining man's freedoms.

I get all oogy just thinking about George Washington.

That said, I like good wargames. I like some eras more than others (no one, of course, is ever going to create a good 3-d, WEG0 ECW game, so I've learned to cope) but what matters to me is design, concept and execution. CM:BO and CM:BB have all 3 at a level that honestly beggars the imagination.

I admit, I PREFER to play allies (Brits count here (to me, anyway) as do Aussies, Poles, Canadians, etc.) and am having a hard time warming up to Uncle Joe. On the other hand, I do not trivialize the sacrifices or service of any of the lunatics who actually got into some of these odd tanks (TANKETTE??!!) and defended their nation with bravery and honor.

I get the point that started this thread. I think it's good food for thought. Given the way markets run, the focus of CB:BB could well cut into sales (you'll note a certain other game is called "GI" Combat). This, however, did not stop me from buying 2 copies...man's gotta have him some LAN games, right? This will not stop me from prostelytizing all my friends. I hope it does "broaden the horizons" (I'm amazed how much this phrase is used as snide invective) of some purchasers. For me, it will serve as a reminder of just how much we spoiled children of the "best generation" owe our forefathers.

Many Regards,

Jim

:/7)

Who is only able to write this because his copy of CM:BB is at HOME...

[Darren J Pierson]

As some here have missed, it is a matter of perspective. We don't all play these games for the same reason. Some play them for fun, for history, for a competitive challenge, for solving a puzzle, etc. Plus a combination, etc.

Some of us are more interested in one front or another. For me, I am more interested in the CW and US because I have a personal connection. That has nothing to do with the significance of any of the fronts, but it has an extra attraction for me. As hard as I try, I cannot work up the same interest in German/Soviet pixels as I can for American/Canadian pixels.

I think polls for years have shown that grogs prefer the East Front. Perhaps some should consider that maybe more than grogs play this game? Maybe that would answer certain people's questions as to why others don't share their exact same interests? Maybe because people are different?

Just sit back, relax and enjoy the game.

I don't think anyone has called for a product recall yet.

[beyerun64]

The Eastern Front has always been my main interest. I bought CMBO and played it some, but have always been waiting for something like this set on the Eastern Front.

Having relatives that were under Communist opression for 50 years, and under German occupation/opression for 4+ years, its relavent to me.

Its a shame that most companies just have the Bulge or Western Front games. Because they think that Eastern Front stuff won't sell to the masses.

Happy to finally have the game. Very happy. Won't be playing another computer game other than this for months.

-Byron

[Panzer Leader]

I consider the last two years to be a prelude to the REAL GAME. WW2 IS East Front.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Darren J Pierson:

Just sit back, relax and enjoy the game.

I don't think anyone has called for a product recall yet.

Are you sure? Madmatt let me look at the complaints letters. Here is one:

Dear Sir,

I was appalled to find upon opening the package of your marvellous software that it deals in fact with the Eastern Front. We all know that the Soviet had no time to brew a decent cup of tea inbetween human waving his way to Berlin. How one can put out a wargame in which the brewing of tea does not have a major significance is quite beyond me. To put it in no uncertain terms, and quite bluntly - it just won't do! I would expect you to fix, or somefink.

With greatest respect.

Yours helplessly,

Ms. Trellis

Former Land Girl

Ps. My beloved husband told me about his experience with the Kenyan mule-drivers during the rebellion, and while it has zero interest relating to this topic, I shall supply you with the details.

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by Stardog:

Panzer76 with all do respect I don't think anyones role or sacrifice in WWII needs to be marginalized.

My grandfather was a soldier in the 10th Mountain Division, Po Valley and I assure you there was nothing "little" about the stories I grew up hearing.

I understand if you prefer the Eastern Front but please do not downplay D-Day or the Western Front just to make your point.

Ardennes, Battle of the Bulge, little adventure?

Todd

Dont want to offend anyone, see my other post on previous page.

But, if you compare the battles that took place in the East and the West? The East was the key to victory or defeat.

I'm not trying to margalize any ones sacrafise or role, it's just that some played a bigger role and sacrifised more than others.

A life is valuable no matter who's it is.

[Stardog]

Panzer76

No worries, I am sorry if my post sounded pissy.

Just one of those days I guess. It was really wasnt meant to be that way.

Thank you for your reply and God bless everyone who gave in that war no matter what front or nationality.

S!

Todd

[Andrew H.]

I have always been much more interested in the Eastern Front because there is just so much more variety there - from 38(t)s vs. BT-7s to IS-2s vs KTs...and everything in between. Sometimes the Germans have the uebertanks, and sometimes the Russians have the uebertanks.

It's also fascinating to watch equipment, tactics, and troops evolve as the war progresses.

[Abbott]

CMBB will do for the CMBO game system what Cross of Iron did for Squad Leader. A myriad of improved game play, sparking a keen interest in many new to the eastern front. I personally began my journey on the eastern front through Avalon Hill's Cross of Iron. Many hundreds of GHQ and CinC miniature battles later I found CMBO. While not set on my favorite front it has been a thoroughly enjoyable couple of years in Wargaming for me.

I have never been interested in the north African campaign but have no doubt I will jump on any offer of a CMBO engine set in any theatre. I am sure it will add many hours of pleasure to my favorite hobby.

[ September 24, 2002, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: Abbott ]

[Marlow]

Originally posted by Panzer76:

But, if you compare the battles that took place in the East and the West? The East was the key to victory or defeat.

I'm not trying to margalize any ones sacrafise or role, it's just that some played a bigger role and sacrifised more than others.

Your focus is too narrow. Germany's defeat was a result of actions by both the Sov. Union and the Western Allies. You only discuss ground fighting (where the Russians did do the most) and ignore other areas. Without lend lease (weapons, food, ammunition, tools, trucks, boots, etc...) made possible by the Western Allies winning the war in the Atlantic, and without the defeat of the Luftwaffe as a result of the stratigic bombing campaign, it is entirely possible that Germany would have won in the east.

[Franko]

Originally posted by barrold713:

While I respect your opinion Franko, I think that if you are looking for Ironmen, it is to the East that you must look.

BDH

Let me be clear: I personally LOVE this history of the Eastern Front, and I love the game, too. My concern is more about the Game's popularity and staying power after release. CMBO led to all the fanatics (myself included) you see posting here. Will CMBB keep it up is my main question.

Frank

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Franko:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by barrold713:

While I respect your opinion Franko, I think that if you are looking for Ironmen, it is to the East that you must look.

BDH

Let me be clear: I personally LOVE this history of the Eastern Front, and I love the game, too. My concern is more about the Game's popularity and staying power after release. CMBO led to all the fanatics (myself included) you see posting here. Will CMBB keep it up is my main question.

Frank</font>

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by Marlow:

Your focus is too narrow. Germany's defeat was a result of actions by both the Sov. Union and the Western Allies. You only discuss ground fighting (where the Russians did do the most) and ignore other areas. Without lend lease (weapons, food, ammunition, tools, trucks, boots, etc...) made possible by the Western Allies winning the war in the Atlantic, and without the defeat of the Luftwaffe as a result of the stratigic bombing campaign, it is entirely possible that Germany would have won in the east.

Although the allies helped ALOT, Im not too sure Germany would have defeated Soviet without the allies. But one thing I know for sure is that The allies would never been capable of landing in 1944 without Soviet. The war would have have lasted many a year longer. It is in the endless Soviet landscape, Wehrmacht was brought to it's knees. Air planes are well and good, but what good are they if Germany has no one to man them?

[Darren J Pierson]

Originally posted by Andreas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Darren J Pierson:

Just sit back, relax and enjoy the game.

I don't think anyone has called for a product recall yet.

Are you sure? Madmatt let me look at the complaints letters. Here is one:

Dear Sir,

I was appalled to find upon opening the package of your marvellous software that it deals in fact with the Eastern Front. We all know that the Soviet had no time to brew a decent cup of tea inbetween human waving his way to Berlin. How one can put out a wargame in which the brewing of tea does not have a major significance is quite beyond me. To put it in no uncertain terms, and quite bluntly - it just won't do! I would expect you to fix, or somefink.

With greatest respect.

Yours helplessly,

Ms. Trellis

Former Land Girl

Ps. My beloved husband told me about his experience with the Kenyan mule-drivers during the rebellion, and while it has zero interest relating to this topic, I shall supply you with the details.</font>

[Conscript Bagger]

Originally posted by Abbott:

CMBB will do for the CMBO game system what Cross of Iron did for Squad Leader. A myriad of improved game play, sparking a keen interest in many new to the eastern front. I personally began my journey on the eastern front through Avalon Hill's Cross of Iron.

Agreed - I'm familiar with the Eastern Front only because of Panzerblitz and SL. Without them, I doubt I would've been motivated to do even the limited reading (nowhere near 80% - remember that guy? ) that I have done about the Great Patriotic War for Lebensraum. It's a fascinating part of the war, though the sheer size of the subject makes it a bit intimidating for a dilettante like me. Nevertheless, I now find myself buying books about Soviet infantry tactics and caring that the Maxim model doesn't have wheels in the game (someone please tell me this will get the "somefink" treatment in the patch). Anyway, don't let anyone tell you CMBB costs $45 or whatever. It's that plus the money you'll throw at Amazon or Nafziger (or Battlefront.com).

[Yank]

Howdy Panzer76.

Compared to the Eatern Front, the westeren was a side show. Do *you* think that the allies could have landed in France if Germany was not fighting in the east?

Nope sure don't.

My point is that the Soviet effort was crucial to winning the war, more so than the western front.

I agree completely, the way you stated it just seemed disrespectful IMO. Hey like I said not trying to pick a fight, one thing I've learned on this forum is to respect other peoples opinion's, and learn from them if possible. Well I'll be, while I was typing my copy arrived. So it's off to the east front for me. happy gaming fellas.

[-E]

Originally posted by Abbott:

I have always preferred the eastern front myself. CMBO was a great diversion while waiting anxiously for this one.

Ditto. (Kampfgruppe for the Apple ][ was one of the two first games I ever bought)