CMBO vs CMBB demo - poor scenarios

[kmead]

Chad Harrison

When the full version comes out, perhaps we can either suggest some better scenarios, or create ones ourselves. I doubt that BFC/BTS would change anything unless a better suggestion was given and agreed on by the majority of players.

Chad

I honestly think this is the best suggestion I have heard(seen) here. I vote that we have a competition for creating the best demo scenarios using the shipping version of CMBB.

You will recieve one week to create it and send it to a review committee that will then forward a list of finalists to BFC for final judging.

BFC will then choose whether our efforts are any better than their own and can include them if they see fit in a revised Demo of CMBB.

I think this falls in the category of my favorite Bill Mauldin Willy and Joe cartoon: If you knows of a better hole then go git it... or something to that effect

[Pak_43]

I'll tell you what I bet Charles and Steve are better men than me....

I would just bin the lot and say "Too boring, unbalanced, derivative, they lack atmosphere, they were clearly rushed, and I'm never going to play them again"

and see what reaction that got!

[Battlefront.com]

Wow! Not only did I come to the boards this week to find Howard back and posting, but a certain lizard dude is too! What week

Goanna wrote:

Honestly Steve, did you put the same time into crafting the demo scenarios as others in the full game?

Well, I would expect so. I only made two scenarios for CMBB (both of which you all have played) and spent the better part of a week making both. This is about the same amount of time I spent on the 4 scenarios I made for CMBO.

As for the suggestion about the automap... this is a bit funny. I made all 5 Demo scenarios using the Auto Map feature to some extent (Last Defence was scratch built), but the most heavily modified map out of the bunch was Yelnia. The least modified was Valley of Trouble. Just goes to show that perception has a lot to do with the person perceiving

One thing that people have to keep in mind is that when making a historical scenario (both Demo scenarios were historically based geographically) the designer does not have freedom to do anything he wants. Both maps are quite accurate, so if they don't look good blame whatever force/entity created those patches of Earth and not me

As for the demo scenario creation contest idea... no This is nothing we want to spend time on. The current demo took Charles several days of solid programming to organize (each sound and BMP had to be specifically accounted for). Plus, it misses the point I have been trying to hammer home since the beginning of this thread:

No two scenarios will please all the people out there. Period. So it is totally futile and a complete waste of our time trying. Period.

The simple truth is that each side thinks that because they feel a certain way that they are right. And note that there are TWO sides to this. The people bitching about the scenarios are, in our firm opinion, a minority. A loud and sometimes whiney minority, but certainly not a majority. We also see a variety of different motivations for having a negative opinion of the scenarios, which makes a "solution" all the more difficult to come up with that will please the bulk of the complainers.

I don't know how many times I can say this... we are not releasing a third demo scenario. Period. We also do not see any reason, game play or sales related, to change the existing scenarios. We are the ultimate judge of what will or will not sell our products. We are the ones that profit or lose based on those judgements. It is a bit arrogant for anybody to suggest that they know better than we what we should do. It is not just because it is "our ball and bat" but because it is OUR asses on the line, not anybody else's. We have a proven track record of "being right" and therefore we will stick to our judgements on this.

If nobody liked the scenarios or everybody that disagreed did so for a very identifiable and consisitant reason, then perhaps we would change things. No, actually, we would certainly change things. But the day we start catering our business and marketing decisisons based on the vocal minority, that is the day we should pack it in.

And it isn't that we are underestimating CMBB's potential cross market appeal. It is that we understand its natural limiations and know very well that they do in fact exist. CMBB is a cross over product, but only to a certain degree. Putting in two new scenarios that would please the complainers here will not change that. In fact, it could make things worse for us overall. And that is why we are sticking to our guns on this issue and why this is now a subject of whining.

We have heard the complaints, addressed the complaints, heard counter complaints, addressed counter complaints, and we still are not even the slightest bit in doubt that we are doing the right thing. So what is the point of continuing the pestering? Man, this reminds me of the people that wanted us to change ballistics so Tigers could be killed...

Steve

[ARRPEEGEE]

BFC

See what you've done? You've made BB so much better than BO that everyone just can't handle being limited to two scenarios..I think you've failed in your attempt to make the game suck...I'm very dissapointed

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Hey people. I'm disappointed with the demo as well! If there is one thing that I wanted in it, it was fricken AFVs with fricken laser beams attached to their turrets!

[manchildstein (ii)]

i think that cmbb is going to be the best computer game by anyone to date... bar none...

having said that i wonder if cmbb will automatically sell to everyone who bought cmbo... and then some...

my only observation about the demo is that neither scenario includes afvs and infantry-and-support-weapon-type units for both sides, as does the cmbo demo...

in any event i really enjoyed working with 10 pziiis and 5 pzivs at once in citadel... 15 tanks in a scenario is rare by cmbo standards... so it was a bit, 'over the top' to see such a thing in the demo...

again, cmbb is going to be the most incredible computer game ever... i mean what... 300 vehicles to choose from or somefink!... '41 to '45! ...wow...

german recon in '41... heavy fighting against 'massed' t34s in the south... steppe and city fighting in '42... kursk-type mind-blowing battalion level battles... su and isu-152s and crack smg squads... su-76 battalions... is2... t34-85... wow!... wow!... wow!

if cmbo had a plethora of scenario designing opportunities... cmbo is going to put a scenario designer into hog heaven!....

[gunnergoz]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

(snips to the point...)

I don't know how many times I can say this... we are not releasing a third demo scenario. Period. We also do not see any reason, game play or sales related, to change the existing scenarios. We are the ultimate judge of what will or will not sell our products. We are the ones that profit or lose based on those judgements. (snips rest of quote)

Steve

[Puff the Magic Dragon]

Here is a quote from another board! It's so cool :cool:

BTS said the scenarios represent CMBB perfect. So does this mean that CMBB is a dry hardcore game that get's boring when you have played it twice?

[Battlefront.com]

I hope someone corrects the moron that wrote that

Steve

[tabpub]

Did Eumundi start this thread from the grave, or by proxy. To paraphrase his quote (I KNOW someone has it in their sig) it is not up to us to prove that we are right, but as customers if we want it, it must be right.

Where is that sig when I need it...reaches for another drink..

[Firefly]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

I hope someone corrects the moron that wrote that

Steve

His grammar or his opinion ?

[deanco]

Ok, I just finished playing both demo scenarios, and I think they're great, fantastic scenarios. Now, I know I can't just say that without throwing around some hard facts to defend my position. Well, here they are.

1) I won a minor victory attacking in Citadel, my first try.

2) I won a MAJOR VICTORY attacking in Yelnia Stare, my first try.

I therefore conclude that I am VERY favoribly impressed with the quality of the demo scenarios, very favoribly impressed indeed. Had the outcome of my games been different (and there is every reason to believe that it should have been), I might have had a lesser opinion. But as it stands, I can only conclude that a) the scenarios are perfection personnified, and Steve and Charles have created a rich game engine where anything, literally ANYTHING, can happen.

This should put the whole matter to rest.

[Andreas]

DeanCo, you won?! But, but, you are French... Inconceivable!

[Xavier]

These two CMBB scenarios are far more realistic than some "historical" labeled scenarios that exists for CMBO. :cool:

[Battlefront.com]

Andreas, it is worse than you think... DeanCo is just an American living in France

Steve

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Andreas, it is worse than you think... DeanCo is just an American living in France

Steve

They're the worst. Coming over here, breathing our air, clogging up our internet. Wearing Hawaii shirts and shorts, and selling us their TV programmes. Scum. The only thing that is worse are Germans living in London.

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Andreas:

They're the worst. Coming over here, breathing our air, clogging up our internet. Wearing Hawaii shirts and shorts, and selling us their TV programmes. Scum. The only thing that is worse are Germans living in London.[/QB]

Hey Steve,

Did you notice how Andreas (a German... living in London) refers to French air as our air? I know that oh, we're not thinking of expanding our frontiers attitude was a base lie. Bloody Huns

[Geier]

Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

I know that oh, we're not thinking of expanding our frontiers attitude was a base lie.

This time they're after some breathingraum.

[Marlow]

Beating a dead horse, but here is my two cents.

The two scenarios in the demo are fine. I believe that Yelina will appeal more to the long time CM player (I preferred it), as it takes more knowledge of the game system to effectively manage various arms, and successfully have them work together on the attack. On the other hand, for someone who is new to the game, the all tank force in Citadel will have appeal. I remember that when I started the first battle I played (the tutorial on the CMBO CD), the main “cool” factor was the two Shermans. Yes, I knew that the infantry was important to the game, but I really couldn’t wait to mix it up with some Panzers. The first time through, I left the grunts sit, and started off down the road with my tanks. I carefully moved them into a hull-down position at the first rise thinking to myself, “how cool is this, a game where the player can actually move his tanks with this kind of precision. Next think I know, I spot a mark IV, and we slug it out. Killed it after a few shots. I watched that turn about a dozen times. Bottom line is that a battle with an all tank force (i.e. Citadel) is exactly what many new folks would want.

[[Wiking]]

At least CMMB does have a demo, unlike G.I. Combat...*sigh*

[gunnergoz]

Sometimes I wish life had a Demo Mode, things would be a lot easier...

[Lanzfeld]

Originally posted by SS_Obergruppenführer:

At least CMMB does have a demo, unlike G.I. Combat...*sigh*

GI COMBAT demo on Sept 27th. Different game then CMBB but I must say that I am really looking forward to the real time aspect and individual soldier animations. 94 death animations!!! WOW!!! :eek:

[ September 10, 2002, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: Lanzfeld ]

[vondeath]

OK ... I'm missing something here ... There were 4 scenarios in the CMBO demo? I only got 2 I thought I downloaded the Gold edition, only to get the same two I got when I first downloaded it. (Chance Encounter and Valley of Trouble).

Any way to dig up the other 2? I am leaning toward getting the bundle next payday. A couple of different scenarios would really pique my interest... well not like it's been piqued already .. Just point me to the 2 others!

[stug0099]

I have never been one for forums but as a long time playa of CMBO this tread has drawn me to make my first post ever to a bulletin board. I got the CMBO demo when it first came out and the CMBB demo the day it was released and the difference could not be more striking. The CMBO demo demonstrated the ability of the game and what to expect from the full version. It took me about 5 minutes to decide that the game was the best I’d seen – ever. The scenarios were very well crafted and allowed different tactics and opportunities. The playa got re-enforcements, which could change the outcome of the whole battle etc.

The CMBB demos on the other hand was flat and uninspiring after playing it about twice. It allows for no tactic, there are no re-enforcements, it just does not cut it. The demo will not convince a first time buyer to purchase the game, some may but not most. It seems as if BTS have arrogantly thrown those demo together as they know that most of us will certainly purchase the game. This sort of thing happens when a company starts growing fast.

I do not mean to upset anyone at BTS or any fans of the game by my comments as I am a big fan myself. I note some fans reply to the genuine statement made by the persons who started this thread can be described as hostile. It seems some fans cannot bring themselves to speak their minds about the lack of good demos. Why & how would a developer hear its consumers if we cannot tell them our true feelings.

[Spook]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Scum. The only thing that is worse are Germans living in London.

Would you rather be in Stuttgart?