manchildstein (ii)

they have all these old tracked personnel carriers (m113?) sitting in depots... they should put a 105mm on those... probably could airlift them ok...

when i've got a battalion sized force, i'll take the battalion hq, the company hqs, and all of the section and gun platoon leaders and put them together... then i parcel them out one by one as the 'glue' holding the heavy weapons of the force together... for instance i'll look for any hq with good stealth and put it with some units i want to remain hidden... the infantry platoon hqs stay with their platoons, but all of the other hqs are treated pretty much the same.. the ones with the great bonuses get the toughest tasks... if i have an abundance of these hqs... the ones with no bonuses sometimes end up being scouts in tandem with tank hunters or sharpshooters... but 'detached' platoon hqs (from mg and heavy weapons companies), section hqs, company hqs and battalion hqs.. i treat them all roughly the same... yes i'll put each heavy and support weapon type in a little 'stack'.. separate the infantry platoons out.. and all of those 'independent' hqs in their own 'stack'... sometimes i have gotten upwards of 10 50mm mortars attached to a single 'independent' hq... that is hopefully a bit of a shock to the opponent! grins

one thing about molotovs.. maybe someone has mentioned it already... weren't there actually at least 2 basic types... the factory made one with the self-contained phosphorous fuse .. then the field expedient one with the gasoline-soaked rag fuse? if this is so... perhaps it should be reflected in the game... i would much prefer the one with a phosphorous fuse.. as long as it didn't break while i was handling it...

having a good hq nearby can mean the difference between destruction and survival for an atg under mortar fire....

when we took that borisovka station map and expanded the axis setup zone so they could set up guns in the edge of the trees ... i had something like 6 x 75mm IG, 3 x 20mm AA, 3 x 37mm AT... the aa were pretty much covering just one isolated sight line, my left... that t-34 you had toward my right was able to take out the other guns piecemeal... down to the last 3 or 4, which it then basically overran... during that entire battle.. i never had more than 2 or 3 guns on that t34 at a time... then i realized i needed bigger guns for that map... so i played some other people, and twice i purchased 6 x 150mm IG... both times those guns were able to deal quickly with the russian armor... one player complained that i didn't purchase transport for the 150s... ...another time on that same borisovka map, i had the basic 2 x 75mm IG and 3 x 37mm atg, with 3 20mm aa thrown in... the opponent showed up on turn 1 in line of sight of all 8 guns... i opened up on him and knocked out the kv's gun on turn 1... definitely though in battles against you sidewinder my guns have had difficulties... there was that other assault on that rail map... i lost that 105mm art early.. and several other guns... late i had 2 x 105mm firing but they weren't doing much except making fancing fireworks... the 4th was setup in really poor position and was flailing around moving through the woods at the end.... one way to get more use out of your heavy guns -- if you're allowed to place them forward at start -- is to open up with them only after the battle is well under way... wait until your infantry is engaging and several of the defending strongpoints have been identified... then if your guns were well-placed at the start.. if they open up decisively for a turn or two.. they could turn the tide... but if you open up too early with big guns... and some defender -- some kind of mortar or sharpshooter, etc. -- has a 'bead' on your gun positions... bye-bye guns.... i like to open up with some 20mm to start... they don't provide very good ID signatures to the opponent... their area fire might reveal some defending positions while their stealth makes them the most survivable gun type... as for whether the attacking guns should be towed... i figure you could have a house rule where all attacking guns set up in the back of the attacker's setup zone... or where guns of a certain size and above are required to entire the game in tow.... i don't mind if the attacking player purchases guns without transport... guns are pretty easy to kill... 'muahahah'... i've lost enough of my own anyway... lol after that, i wondered about some house rules for guns.. one would be that, during setup the attacker has to place all guns on the back tile row of his setup zone... or that smaller guns - 37mm atg, 20mm aa, etc. -- can set up forward while others require transport... i do know that, as for the 150mm IGs.. if you purchase 1 or 2 on the assault over a large map... with spw 251/1s to tow them... you can really get some good results... following behind the main action and setting up with line of sight to a flag area...

--Also notice how the point limits for the catagories change for the defender between "Attack" and "Assualt", especially for fortifications. If you choose Assault over Attack, the defender is cut back on the other catagories (Infantry, support,etc.) and forced to put more points in fortifications.--- but that doesn't apply to the 'unrestricted' setting... that would be 'combined arms' instead...

if you set it to 'assault' rather than 'attack,' a 2000 point battle will give the defense 2000 and the 'attackers' 3440... the ratio is roughly 1.75:1... if you add a bonus to the 'attacking' side it should give you more or less the result you want...

i played a bunch of tcpip qbs through the cmhq chat, and was trying to think of something useful to post here about the experience... i was seeking non-rarity attack/assaults over custom maps, usually in 1941 or 1944 ... ... some of the players there are extremely good... others almost seem worse than the ai... and they run the gamut in between... anyway.. the idea of 'rarity off' is to use the battlefront 'overall values' assigned to the units, and to allow for all kinds of variations in forces...some battles were combined arms... most were unrestricted.... the problem with rarity is that certain vehicles, support weapons, and artillery FO modules don't appear in games as much, being penalized for their historical rarity rather than their actual 'potency' on the battlefield... of course with rarity off, and looking at the unadjusted 'values' of the units, there will definitely be some cherry picking going on in 1941, the kv tanks are very cheap with rarity off... the 25mm aa is ridiculous at 13 points... the german 75mm IG is 19 points in 1941... things like that.... ultimately, the challenge of 'rarity off' QBs is in fielding a force which can deal with all contingencies.... so here are a few ways to deal with unbalanced forces you might see: UNBALANCED FORCE #1: 1941, russian player purchases KVs: there are 2 or 3 basic ways to kill kv tanks in 1941: 1) infantry close assault... when you spot the kv tank(s)... immediately begin planning on how to get your infantry in close... purchase tank hunters yourself... 2) lots of smaller guns; if you purchase a german battalion with the heavy company, you already have 5 guns; 3 x 37mm atg and 2 x 75mm IG... add more guns during the unit purchase... sometimes, if you position all your guns at the start, overlooking a key fire lane, on turn 1 you can knock out a kv... 6-8 light guns firing on a single kv can produce immobilizations and gun damage.. this will have the kv bailing in no time... 3) air attack... this is risky... because of: UNBALANCED FORCE #2: air support... i like to play with clear skies, and challenge the other player to purchase air support.... with the russians, you can do this with say, 6 x 25mm aa screening the back/flank of your defense from tree positions... when the air support shows up, it will be a good duel between all that aa and the aircraft.... with romanians in 1941, you get a particularly powerful light aa with the hotchkiss 25mm... UNBALANCED FORCE #3: lots of aa guns and such on the defense: as the attacker/assaulter, you want to have a method of quickly dispatching those pesky guns... with the germans you can employ the 81mm mortar halftracks... even the 50mm infantry mortars are ok for knocking out guns... as long as they can get within 500 meters... the russian 50mm has a range of 800 meters! another answer to any kind of massed-gun defense is the sharpshooter... sharpshooters can take out guns without themselves being spotted.... UNBALANCED FORCE #4: lots of conscript heavy artillery with TRPs on the defense: you have to keep your units separated as much as possible in order to prevent being hit too hard... my best use of the russian 210mm in '41 at 93 points was when i spotted 8 tanks all scrunched up within two tiles at the start... i had TRPs but with a target like that presenting itself... i just unloaded with a pre-planned barrage on the tanks instead... killed 2 and knocked out 2 tank guns, plus a 150mm ig and about 60 infantry... while i've never been shelled that dramatically, i've seen my share of 150mm and above smashing my tightly packed positions.... UNBALANCED FORCE #5: russian su-76, t-70, or stuart 'swarm' assault... you want the 37mm aa, or for the su-76s in particular, a module of 158mm rockets... UNBALANCED FORCE #6: russian regimental smg company in low visibility: this can be difficult to defeat... usually, when moving up through low visibility, i'll have the infantry in half squads and moving to contact in a sort of picket formation... usually when the smg squad(s) is encountered, the nearest half squad dies... often though a lot of the other friendly infantry moving up has stopped just out of los of the first identified smg position... the best tactic for these i learned is to -- in the following orders segment -- simply fire area fire toward the known smg positions while staying put for the moment... fire area fire around the smg foxholes, and let them leave their foxholes to attack you if they want further contact.... you might lose them if they withdraw, but if they stay put and you send more infantry forward, those will die like the first... so the idea is to keep hitting them with area fire and try to get some high explosive or mg fire on them.. bring tanks forward to where your infantry are stalled out and pound the smg positions... with the machineguns, bring them up to where your infantry are waiting and set them up, in the hopes the smg squads don't counterattack in the meantime... once the hmgs are set up, then start peppering the positions with area fire... the main thing is to kind of fight them just out of los until you can get armor there... you do not want to be moving up on them the moment after you discover their positions.. they're too alert and have too much ammo... perhaps after a turn or two of the area fire by the forward infantry... you can sneak a half squad or tank hunter forward, to see if you've had any kind of effect, but the best thing is to.. if you've got it.. get the tank support there as quickly as possible... the russian smg squads are absolutely the nastiest infantry in cmbb at close range... the russian player can get a company of them for about 270 points or less... listen for that russian smg sound and pay the proper respect once you've found it... and realize that.. if you're lucky there are only 2 more platoons like that.. out there somewhere... anyway, there are a few examples of unbalanced forces and how to counter them... some of my favorite units, and the favorite units of my oponents are: 1941: russian 85mm aa, ot-134 flame tanks, kv2, 76mm 'artillery piece' (24 points), 25mm aa (13 point), 210mm FO, 107mm mortar FO; german 75mm IG (my fav) and 150mm IG, sig33; romanian pioneer battalion, 25mm hotchkiss, french import tank 1944: russian su-76, t-70, stuart favorites in all situations are the german 150mm ig, german 158mm rockets, the russian pioneers, and smg companies the reason the german pioneers are not so good is that you're forced to pay for a lot of flamethrowers... with russian .. or especially those romanian ones mentioned above... you get a lot more demo charges... and that's what the pioneers are most useful for.. the demos... the flamethrowers can actually be a liability...

in 1941 the average panzer division had 2 infantry regiments with 2 battalions apiece... usually.. just one of those 4 battalions had armored halftracks.. as jason had mentioned... the rest were in trucks... i think 1 or 2 of the panzer divisions had 2 spw battalions but the rest had just one... on the other hand, some may have even had only the first company of the first battalion having spw support... so, at least early on they were fairly rare... in cmbb terms, i find that whatever i'm deploying, if i have more firepower at the point of contact -- and the matchups are correct -- then the firefight can be won... sometimes an spw assault can succeed spectacularly.. other times it can leave the field littered with burning halftracks and broken panzergrenadiers... you have to know when to hold, and know when to fold... i would agree that 'interdiction' and sealing off narrow firing lanes would be good uses for the mg halftracks... of that 251/2.. the 81mm mortar halftrack.. you get 1 of these behind a spotter hq... knocks out guns in a jiffy... have had it done to me many a time... it would be cool if they had an armored panzergrenadier battalion with 6x 251/2 and an HQ attached, rather than the 81mm FO which comes with the MG company...

the thing that is odd with the PZ IV in cmbb, is that we have people saying, 'i didn't go hulldown.. just stayed out in the open where it was safer...' maybe it has more to do with a 'one size fits all' turret than anything else... maybe they've got the armored protection correct, but the chance of a turret hit is waay to high for the PZ IV in particular... perhaps kind of like how the narrow turret front on the t-34 takes more than its share of hits in '41.... anway... for a qb, i'll purchase panzer IVs in '41.. late war though they seem to cost more than they're worth....

well, i thought the somuas were a bit gamey but wouldn't have thought it abnormal if all of the light tanks had been straight pz 1s and 2s (no pz 2 flames, no somuas).. that could have represented a group of them being doled out from battalion or regiment.. since it appears that 'irl' they were soon taken out of the front line medium and light companies and attached higher up... but the somuas... i have info they only served in an independent battalion in finland... still, i think pz 1 / 2 tanks would have had generally the same effect... thing with the somua is.. in rarity off situations... it's best 50-point tank there is... but that definitely had me rolling my eyes... anyway.. i've found light armor to be quite useful.. and my own purchases are usually trying to model something i consider to be historical... interestingly, and more back on topic... i was doing an assault today.. 1500 point.. oct '41... in the game i've got 2 platoon pz IV E and a platoon of sig33b... and a battalion of the 4-squad infantry type... everything is progressing well.. the infantry have gone ahead.. so far i've met up with an smg ambush and one of the sig33s was right on it... the pz IVs are moving up to fire on some other id'd but currently inactive positions... the reason i prefer a heavier mix of infantry is the ability to launch small attacks across the map.. maybe a platoon every 500 metres of width.. sneaking toward key areas... and the remaining 6 or 7 platoons massed in one area.. but 'checkerboarded' so no barrage can touch more than a single platoon, if even that.... i like to starch up the platoons with 2 x tank hunter apiece... then sweep forward and clear the way for my armored support.. if i meet something heavy.. hopefully my tank hunters are nearby up front while the armor engages the threat from further back... with infantry swarming all around, it's that much harder for the opponent's heavy armor to concentrate on my pz IVs...

i'm talking about recon with light vehicles and attempting to keep them alive... not intentionally sending them out to die... for instance, with dual mgs the pz 1 puts out a lot of mg firepower... it can suppress the first position it finds... i've had games against good opponents where pz 1s have gone ahead and survived, and stuck around to be fighting over the flags at the end... it's kind of a matter of getting a feel for a situation, and whether you think you can plunge that light armor ahead... without undue risk... an actual example of light armor with panzer IVs backing it up would be an assault i defended against.. it had hordes of pz I, pz II, pz II flame, and Somua... they drove in first, identified and engaged positions, and the panzer IVs came after, always hovering back in overwatch, chucking HE... the whole thing was backed by a single company of armored infantry.. it gave me renewed respect for the spw 251/1 when employed in numbers... if you think running light armor ahead is not a valid practice in cm; well that's matter of taste as far as i'm concerned... like anything else.. it can succeed or it can fail.. a lot of it has to do with the defender's setup....

well according to some printouts i have from another thread... it went like this... in practice, the panzer iv company almost always had only 2 platoons, due to shortages of such... but i'm getting ahead of myself... the information on the one hand states that the pz IV company had 2 x pz IV platoon and a platoon of light, but in another spot it says, 3 x pz IV platoon, no light. that part though about the shortages and the being reduced to 2 platoons per company... that comes later in the posting i saved... would seem to apply to all pz IV companies, with or without lights... as far as the lights, you may be right there, because regardless of how the medium company of the battalion had originally been constructed, according to the info here, the lights were in any even quickly consigned to battalion and regimental level... so you may have a point on the lights... also, it appears panzer IV C was maybe less common than even E... so with that in mind i would go with a platoon of D and a platoon of E, and feel free to take or leave any lights... i have no problem with mixing in light vehicles... i know this thread is about panzer IVs, and maybe this is a tangent, but being able to get the light AFVs forward and firing on enemy positions... it seems like an 'achievement' in this game... and i consider it a part of the overall battle plan, which has the pz IVs committed to overwatch ... sometimes, and armored car or light tank will surge far forward, unharmed... this can also relate to the pzIV; as getting these light AFVs far forward theoretically gives the pz IVs more room to operate... now there can be problems with, for instance defensive gunners not opening up until the 'real deal' gets in their sites, but i suppose by now more than anything else we're discussing; more than anything else stylistic differences in our manners of play ....

one thing is for sure.. those maps from manstein (not to be confused with yours truly) over at cmmods..com... great-looking maps from what i've seen of them...

12 PZ IVE in summer '41 with no other AFVs around... that just seems 'gamey'.... i mean it's an impressive force, but it requires some suspension of disbelief... ...the average PZ IV co had 2 platoon PZ IV with a platoon of light tanks attached... the IV E was not the most common type in say, jul '41... so i was trying to inject a bit of realism instead of optimizing the points spent... and the armored cars.. they go along with the recon battalion... admittedly the armored cars and light tanks are weak vehicles, but they sure make the battle more interesting, especially if the russian player agrees beforehand to bring mostly bt and t-26 types.... and i think you do need assault odds in '41... i've had a lot of games in that situation where the russian has won handily... in games involving some of the best players you could meet on the cmhq chat...

it looks like the savings on a (regular) platoon of D versus E is only 25 points... but D is probably more realistic for a jul '41 battle... maybe one platoon of each with a platoon of either pz 1 or 2 tanks to round out the company.... a 'company' like this... backed with a couple of platoons of armored cars and a 1205 point (mechanized) recon battalion... that's a pretty good combined arms attack/assault force... maybe throw in a couple of 150mm IG or 3 or 4 75mm IG... remember the recon battalion will have 2 x 75mm IG and 3 x 37mm atg organic to it anyway... it looks like the pz IV D is probably just proof against atrs.... send the infantry ahead, followed by light tanks and armored cars... try not to expose the vehicles to too many potential defensive firing positions... then when the battle starts heating up... the forward infantry and light armor are firing on things.. bring the pz IV tanks up into select firing positions... yet behind the front pickets by 200 metres or so.... the armored cars and pz 1 tanks can more or less go for broke.. sometimes dashing way out in front of the lead infantry.. once in awhile there isn't anything there... this allows the main body to speed up its timetable... when dashing armored cars or light tanks ahead... i still look to move them from cover to cover, and plan their moves to end in what appears to be decent cover.... if you were playing a 1500-point jul '41 assault, you could purchase: (all regular quality) 1205 point mech recon battalion platoon (4) PZ IV D platoon (4) PZ IV E platoon (4) PZ I B platoon (4) PSW 222 armored car 2 x 150mm IG 2 x SPW 251/1 halftrack that would be 2374 out of 2380 available points... not a bad force.. and a good chance to test out some of the theory discussed on this thread... it would be especially interesting if the russian player were limited to a ratio of light tanks versus heavy... such as 2 platoons of light (t-26 or bt) for every 1 heavy (kv or t-34) platoon purchased...

i like the panzer IV in '41... the D model... not too expensive.. but has that 'improved' 20mm side armor from the C model... i figure if the turret is modelled improperly, it will be less glaring in '41... in late war... i'll just take the stug IV instead.... as for operating with the D model in '41... i like to have at least 1 or 2 platoons.. as someone mentioned... they need to keep well back of the infantry (and armored cars and light tanks)... let the forward units get into some contact.. then advance into keyhole positions as someone else described... sometimes a whole platoon in a line looking down a single fire lane! recently i discarded this SOP and sent my IV D tanks a bit too far forward... telling myself... 'well this is the last time i move them so far forward'... as it turned out.. i lost 2 of the IV D tanks in the exact same 'keyhole/overwatch' spot.. to a phreaking ampulomet... ARGHHHH.... definitely keep the infantry at least a couple hundred meters forward... at least until you know better what it is you're dealing with... grins

i've been battling over a modified borisovka station map (expended axis and allied setup zones)... this is a good map for moving across open ground... well wheatfield, fence, and open ground... usually i play a 25 or 30+ turn, 1000-point (1720 attacker) axis assault on it in jul of '41... anyway... you can get that map at der kessel... it seems like a good example of a map where you have to move over modest amounts of open area... and it's doable in 25 or 30+ turns... if you use the setup zones 'as is' from the site.. you might want to agree to no allied artillery spoiler attacks at the start... the modified version i've been trying has the german setup zone all the way across the back of the map... and expands the soviet zone a bit

...sometimes... you have more infantry than there is cover; at least without bunching the infantry up... so that would be a case where it might be good to sneak a bunch of units right across the open.. as your units already in cover engage in firefights... i you have time... you can sneak across large areas of open ground... if your units become 'tired'... put a 40-second delay on them every couple of turns or so.... also.. if he can see you then you can see him... so you can invest in a couple of infantry guns... and push them into positions with good lines of sight ... having some kind of HE... especially 75mm or higher... really helps dispatch with MG nests more quickly... the one thing that makes an advance across large open areas is the delay factor.. if you bunch up and delay for too long in one spot.. you can really get hit with artillery.... one way to help avoid artillery is to keep units spaced north-south in addition to east-west... because the artillery sheathes in cm run east-west... so when you have a bunch of units all in tight along an east-west line... watch out...

the grenade bundle is about 30 meters (same for pioneer squad demo charges).. the little bombs are about 37 meters...

in cmbb.. the infantry gun is always cheaper than the howitzer in my experience... but i play with rarity off so maybe with random rarity you're seeing cheaper howitzers in some situations?...

sometimes you might just have to call for a cease-fire.. if you don't have the means to close... one thing is to explore every route of advance with at least a token force, in the hopes that you can 'envelop' the open ground and by the time units are crossing that area.. you have supporting fire from the sides...

you want to employ your infantry to clear the way for the tanks... the only time i would drive a lot of tanks forward would be with squads riding them.. and with the notion of driving 'through' an area rather than 'into' it... in quick battles there usually isn't enough armor to attempt this... in general though you want your infantry to be forward... identifying antitank positions for the tanks... ideally, you want to be so careful with your armor that when you turn it... you have every conceivable enemy firing position on that tank's soon-to-be-exposed flank.. flushed out... there's perhaps nothing worse in cmbb than exposing your tank's flank then getting hit by antitank fire.. all because you failed to secure that flank with infantry ahead of time... well that and getting a tank toasted by a tank hunter or pioneer... to get the mortars to fire.. keep them behind the squads.. and even behind the platoon hq units.. the mortars can fire at whatever their immediate hq (the one with the red line to them) can see... so the mortars can be kept back out of los.. while their hq unit scouts forward as 'eyes'.. the way to tell if your mortar is targetting something it can't see... but which its hq can.. is if there is a yellow line after calling in the shot... in this way the mortars are excellent for neutralizing gun positions.... say a gun opens up on your infantry squads... slightly back, your hq moves up to get within los of the gun... then the mortar in command of the hq can either target the 'gun' or the 'foxhole' or 'trench' the gun is in....

i've noticed that when purchasing a battalion with a weapons company attached.. that often the company hq and platoon hqs in the weapons company will have good stealth if nothing else... as already mentioned, these are a natural fit in and around your gun positions... another use for company and battalion hqs in general is to advance, near the front line with the infantry platoons... these extra hqs can be the glue which holds a force together... at certain points you can attach squads and support weapons to these higher-level hqs... in any event it is usually good to keep the infantry platoon hqs alive for as long as possible.. to accomplish this, when moving to first contact i give each squad or half squad a move to contact order.. and the platoon hq moves up with the platoon, yet 10 or 20 meters behind, and also uses move to contact.. the difference there being that i tack a 'hide' on the end for the platoon hq but not the squad units... my reasoning is that, with both infantry squads and platoon hqs on move to contact + hide, it seems that upon contact they all hide and no one shoots back... by switching to move to contact without the hide on the end for the squads.. this allows the hq with the + hide to actually hide while the squads around it can fire back if not pinned or broken by defensive fire... in a defensive battle where you basically have a reinforced company.. it is probably good to form a battle group around the company hq... made up of at least some of your various support weapons.. in this case the company and platoon hqs are your only hqs.. so it is difficult to get all of your non-hq units under command... without at the same time clustering them 'too tightly'... anyway.. the general idea for me is that company and battalion hqs.. plus the 'freebie' platoon hqs that come as part of a weapons company.. these are the 'glue' that holds the main elements of the force together... one other thing about company and battalion hqs... if one of your infantry platoon hqs die.. the co and batallion hqs are great to have up front to take over command of the dispossessed squads...

i would yet save the halftracks' ammo for targetting guns as a priority over regular infantry.. if i were satisfied the gun threat were non-existent, or that i had other assets to deal with those... i would use the mortar rounds against other targets.... edit: let me expound upon this mortar/gun relationship in cmbb... in my experience the mortars are very good at taking out guns... even the 50mm mortars are very good for this... so for example in 1941.. in cmbb the german 50mm mortar becomes a 'gun killing' unit... while in sl/asl the 50mm was nearly useless... in cmbb it becomes an integral part of a player's 'anti gun assets'... time and time again, i've seen both onboard 50mm and 81/82mm take out guns with relative ease... this is why i try and reserve their ammo for use against guns... [ January 27, 2004, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: manchildstein (ii) ]