Holman Posted April 13, 2003 Share Posted April 13, 2003 Dear BTS, Official announcements have said that CMAK will include (among other great things!) the OOBs for fighting in Italy 43-45. This being the case, some of us are very excited about the possibility of using CMAK to replicate best-loved engagements from CMBO under the CMBB/AK engine. After all, it looks like everything will already be there (except perhaps the volksturm, Pershings, and a few other seldom-used special vehicles). Would it be too much to ask that you include bocage terrain tiles and winter conditions as options in CMAK's scenario editor? I know that the focus in the new game is on events farther south, but these small terrain options would go a long way. The upcoming new engine for CM series will be a while in coming. Being able to "do CMBO" in CMAK would ease the wait while allowing us to play (almost) the whole European war at the latest CM state of the art. Please consider or, well, somefink. Many Thanks! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavier Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 My vote for this one 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmead Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 I am sure that the entire forum will be with you on this one. By the way, northern Italy does suffer a healthy winter and given that it is supposed to cover all the way to 1945 there are a few winters there, more than were enjoyed in France and Germany from June 1944 to April 1945. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benpark Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 My hopes exactly. Since this engine of CMBO/BB/AK is being put to bed, it would be a great addition (and I would definately pay more for it...). I do realize there are time constraints, etc.-they can be the older models, even... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrNoobie Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 goodie then this should be an option for CMMOS! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moneymaxx Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 The release date of CMAK is close enough to X-mas. So please Santa Charles or Santa Martin or Santa Moon or whoever, give us a present, we'll all be good this year . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 Originally posted by Martyr: Dear BTS, Official announcements have said that CMAK will include (among other great things!) the OOBs for fighting in Italy 43-45. This being the case, some of us are very excited about the possibility of using CMAK to replicate best-loved engagements from CMBO under the CMBB/AK engine. After all, it looks like everything will already be there (except perhaps the volksturm, Pershings, and a few other seldom-used special vehicles). Would it be too much to ask that you include bocage terrain tiles and winter conditions as options in CMAK's scenario editor? I know that the focus in the new game is on events farther south, but these small terrain options would go a long way. The upcoming new engine for CM series will be a while in coming. Being able to "do CMBO" in CMAK would ease the wait while allowing us to play (almost) the whole European war at the latest CM state of the art. Please consider or, well, somefink. Many Thanks! that is a VERY VERY legitmate request The ability to play/replay or re-make some of the those GREAT scenario's from CMBO in CMAK with all the NEW features like cover arcs and the GREAT NEW CMBB armour penetration stats and calculations would be the mostly welcomed addition to this new game by all CMBO fans!! This should thread should be a permant fixture on the top of this forum Thanks GREAT suggestion! -tom w [ April 13, 2003, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 I believe if you check with some of the Italian members of the CM community you will find that Italy has something similar to what you want. Overgrown stone walls would be very similar and have a specific name in Italian I believe. Many of the field walls in rural Italy are hundreds if not thousands of years old. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterX Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 It would seem churlish on the part of BFC not to toss in bocage terrain, Gothic churches, a Pershing or two, etc. Basically, a 4th terrain set would be appreciated by all. Then CMBO, 2nd Edition can be created by the scenario makers. But do they want this? [ April 14, 2003, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: PeterX ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 Originally posted by PeterX: It would seem churlish on the part of BFC not to toss in bocage terrain, Gothic churches, a Pershing or two, etc. Basically, a 4th terrain set would be appreciated by all. Then CMBO, 2nd Edition can be created by the scenario makers. But do they want this? Why wouldn't they want this? It would/"should" :eek: help sell more copies of SMAK if it were that broad and flexible so that most CMBO battles could be re-made. -tom w 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 I have a dissenting opinion. If it (whatever 'it' may be) wasn't in the Italian theater then 'it' shouldn't be in the game. No Pershings. No SturmTigers. No 'bocage'. If you can think of a bocage-like land feature in Italy then it's inclusion would be okay (tall ironwork fences?), but not otherwise. BFC bends over backwards trying to make their games as historically accurate as possible. I vote NO to adding inappropriate fantasy terrain features. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipanderson Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 Hi, I have to say that I am with MikeyD on this one. I regard CMAK as a bonus game. We are lucky to be getting it at all. The reason I say this is that an entire new engine will be coming along just nine odd months behind. In time there will be a North West Europe game again, with the new engine. This is to be Med game, so Med it should be. I would not bother with any equipment that was not there historically. I do not like fantasy games . However, there is no reason for BFC to “wilfully” exclude the possibility of people Modding the game to NWE. By this I mean that BFC may as well include slots/graphics numbers for winter Mods, and a slot for Bocage. They could call it all sorts of things, “thicket hedge”, whatever. But all graphics should be Med graphics. I think this does illustrate one point I have always known. The Eastern Front and North West Europe are the big two commercially. If BFC do an Early War game with the first version of the new engine, the forum will be full of demands for 44-45 equipment to be included. Also, commercially, contemporary/modern is also a big winner if you look at the games that sell. All the best, Kip. PS. Of course, BFC would never “wilfully” do anything to annoy their customers. All I mean is that leaving slots for winter Mods, is probably a reasonable compromise, nod in the direction of all those wishing to fight NWE battles with the new CMBB engine version. Me, I am happy to relax and accept this is a Med game. [ April 14, 2003, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: kipanderson ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew H. Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 I always thought that bocage, or troops' behavior around bocage, didn't work that well in cmbo, so I would be in favor of *not* adding the unimproved bocage from CMBO. On the other hand, if there is a bocage-like feature in Italy, BFC should tweak it so it works better than in CMBO and by all means put it in the game; modders, if necessary, can make it look like bocage. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou2000 Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 What can I say ..... NO I'd would LOVE to play BO under a BB engine, BUT, the strength of BFC's games in the past (and hopefully future) has been their accuracy. Adding unrealistic terrain (and units) would reduce the realism of CMAK and unless every BO unit is included only provide sufficient units to do a 'limited' amount of BO scenarios ..... If you wanted to play a QB on an 'Italian' map how are you going to stop the game including boccage or having French churches and building turning up in nothern Italy ... mayb even Pershings included in computer generated forces ...... No, much as I'd like to see BO under the BB (or AK) engine, unless it can do the whole thing, and do it correctly, I'd vote to leave it out ! [ April 14, 2003, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Lou2000 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou2000 Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 OOh look - - double posting My first one ! [ April 14, 2003, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: Lou2000 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabpub Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 Originally posted by Lou2000: What can I say ..... NO If you wanted to play a QB on an 'Italian' map how are you going to stop the game including boccage or having French churches and building turning up in nothern Italy ... mayb even Pershings included in computer generated forces ...... No, much as I'd like to see BO under the BB (or AK) engine, unless it can do the whole thing, and do it correctly, I'd vote to leave it out ! Personally, I have no idea on how they are going to handle the terrain tiles for the different theatres. As to the unit availability, the units could be subdivided based on their presence in that theatre via the rarity. Units that are included that were never in the Med, would only be available on the unrestricted setting. So, to avoid them showing up, don't pick unrestricted. That way, they would still be available for the scenario designers to put in to the "what if" scenarios. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Carr Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 Don't want to get too far off of the original posted topic but didn't the Germans use Ferdinand tank destroyers in Italy? I think they did have a handful of these tank destroyers in Italy. Can anyone confirm? Thanks. As far as the original topic goes, it would be nice to have some of the unique French terrain but IMHO not necessary to re-create some of the battles on the west front. I think as long as they have some of the more common terrain features found in both locations people will be very happy with the much more accurate game engine with the already familiar western front vehicles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 I have a question. If Bocage get's voted out do you want the Russian fencing to stay in, or can you think of a replacement terrain feature that would go well in CMAK? Off the top of my head I could suggest: - Tall Stone wall with ABSOLUTELY NO LOS through it, even up close, and great difficulty getting troops/vehicles over it. Would make city fighting a real challenge. - Tall chain-link Stockade fencing. Not necessarily a CMAK feature but something I always wanted. Total LOS through it and moderately easy to penetrate, but like barbed wire you'd be 100% exposed while crossing it. Good for building garrisons, POW camps and the like. ? Dragon's teeth/anti-tank obstacles. Using a terrain tiles you could run them in patterns, around corners, etc. Again, maybe not the most appropriate for CMAK. Anyone got better ideas? By the way, the Ferdi... or at least the Elefant did make it into Italy. some of the more famous Elefant pictures in the reference books are of the Italian vehicles. [ April 14, 2003, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flammenwerfer Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 I hope ITALY has a more 'earthy' Med. look and not the same grass, trees, pavement...as CMBB. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou2000 Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 Personally, I have no idea on how they are going to handle the terrain tiles for the different theatres I think most of that will be controlled by the year setting ... the North Africa campaign was over before the invasion of Sicily got underway in July '43 and it was Aug '43 before they crossed the Messina straits onto the Italian mainland (errr ... I think thats correct !) Crete would have to be handled differently though. As for the BO type terrain / units ... I still think that unless it can do 'everything BO' ( Oh if only it could :cool: ), it shouldnt try to do 'bits of BO'...... It will be interested to see an 'official' BFC comment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holman Posted April 14, 2003 Author Share Posted April 14, 2003 I understand the desire to keep CMAK battles as historically pure and as realistic as possible, but I don't see a danger involved in including snow, frozen water and even bocage in the scenario editor. CMAK is going to be able to prohibit certain random occurrences in the QB editor anyway: otherwise we might get snow at Tobruk and sandstorms in Rome. Remember that CMBB *already* prevents steppe from showing up in the North and Finland theaters. As for units, nothing need be added. OOBs for Italy 43-45 are already enough to create most of the "Beyond Overlord"-type engagements that people might want. Someone objected that we must have CMBO "all the way or not at all," but I fail to see the logic in that. Why not allow us to do the CMBO battles we can (even the winter ones) if the code already supports it? All in all, the presence of "CMBO+" within CMAK will be just another of those features that adds legs to the game. Keeping NW Europe terrain in the scenario editor would be enough. Calling for its deliberate prevention, however, seems more like Puritanism than purism. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 They're going to need Wadis. What little I've read or heard about the theatre, these dried river beds were absolutely crucial to manuoever in most of the African battles. Something like impassible to tanks, but brilliant cover for infantry. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou2000 Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 Martyr, As for units, nothing need be added. OOBs for Italy 43-45 are already enough to create most of the "Beyond Overlord"-type engagements that people might want. Someone objected that we must have CMBO "all the way or not at all," but I fail to see the logic in that. Why not allow us to do the CMBO battles we can (even the winter ones) if the code already supports it? My real concern is what do BFC put in and what do they leave out ? You can be sure that if they put in everything some consider to be adequate, other wouldnt and it would only be a matter of time (probably days) before the 'BO+ wishlist' threads start to appear asking for extras in patches. As for my 'all or nothing' comment. IF people could just accept the BO type objects in the game as being a bonus then that would be great ... but you know it isnt going to happen ! I'm not against the idea ... I'd love it ... but how long before we see this ........... 'Why didnt BFC include .........' 'BFC please give us a ....... so I can create a BO scenario covering ........' (fill in the blanks as you see fit ) Perhaps a way of doing it would be to release the CMAK on one disk and include a 'bonus' disk (like they did in the original BO) with the extra objects on and a few scenarios included ... that way it would differentiate between the 'full game' and the 'bonus' pack and they could state that ONLY the full game will be patched/supported etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterX Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 I understand the desire to keep CMAK battles as historically pure and as realistic as possible, but I don't see a danger involved in including snow, frozen water and even bocage in the scenario editor. There will be separate terrain and weather sets for each of the three fronts. Check out the Battlefront website. NW Europe would make the 4th set. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 I REALLY don't understand all the NO comments and NO thanks because that would make it "unrealistic" . whaddya mean..... Look at the AMAZING job that modders did with CMBO to make it look like the desert in the North African theatre of operations. AND that was without ANY help from BTS at ALL! If I understand the orignal request/suggestion correctly ALL that was asked was to leave in some terrain tiles left over from CMBO so that modders could make CMBO like maps to recreate CMBO battles. IN THE SAME WAY AS THE MODDERS MADE SCENARIOS AND MAPS FOR NORTH AFRICA FROM CMBO Thats ALL how can you say NO to that? what is so unrealistic about leaving in a few terrain tiles and some (already predetermined) terrain cover and concealment stats/values associated with those terrain tiles so that some CMBO battles, using the units of the SAME time frame and ERA of CMAK , could be recreated in CMAK to play CMBO like battles on a modded ETO map from CMAK. I REALLY do not understand all the no votes, all we are asking for is the option or opportunity for some keen modders to have access to some tiles and terrain features that were common in CMBO, (simple really just leave them in the map editor) -tom w [ April 14, 2003, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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