TankDawg Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 hi Guys, have only played about 8 games of CMBB so far (compared with 200+ of CMBO) and have not really used this command yet. I still use the old faithful hunt forward reverse back system. What am i missing? Does Shoot and Scoot work well? thanks in Advance, jeff 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demoss Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 The problem with hunt forward + reverse back is that you won't reverse back until the target is dead - which means there wasn't really any point in the first place. Shoot & scoot is absolutely essential with certain types of vehicles (Nashorn, IS-series). Otherwise I don't use it much, but do use it occasionally. Doug 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Oh my gosh TankDawg, Shoot & Scoot is the best thing since sliced bread!!!! Believe it! Imagine you've got a big old IS-2 heavy tank behind a ridge and you know there's several enemy tanks ahead. If you just instruct it to 'hunt' it would roll up til it sighted a target, stop and fire... then just sits there while it slowly reloads. In that time you've been spotted and everybody firing on you. Say goodbye to that tank. Now with 'Shoot & Scoot' he rolls forward, stops and fires a shot, and as the enemy tanks rotate their turrets his way he quickly scoots back down the slope to safety, ready to fight another turn. [ January 24, 2003, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 There was a logn thread on the command just last week. You might want to look it up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRUMLIN Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Yeah, look up my thread and see how I used scoot and shoot and lost 2 T34s in short flaming spiky order... Grumlin :mad: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 "Shoot & Scoot" works well for many AFV's, but best IMO for those TD's with potent long-range guns and poor armor, like a Marder or Nashorn. Such vehicles with good long-range guns have a reasonable chance at a one-off shot. But if they hang around too long in exposed position, like through hunt/reverse, the follow-on enemy return fire (multiple shots) get a better chance to hit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juju Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 I like using it with a pair of 20MM 8-rad's or HT's. Fast in, fast out, and multiple shots (not just one) if you're lucky. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Bellator Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Nope, it's pants. Tanks just don't seem to understand the 'Scoot' part of the order. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tar Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 My problem with it, is that I often have trouble judging where to put the "Shoot" endpoint. I either put it too soon, in which case there is no LOS, and thus no shooting. Or I put it too far, in which case I get gunned down before trying to take a shot. Oh well, more practice for me... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caesar Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 One of my favourite new commands. I use it as often as possible. I think the problems I hear people having with the scoot being too slow is caused by the slow rate of turn of the CMBB tanks - just make sure it is straight back (it cost me a couple of tanks learning that one.) To find the optimum distance to go forward I just use the LOS tool to the target and see where the line first goes black. This is where I go forward to (or sometimes slightly short of there) This appears to usually give me hull down as an additional benefit. With judicious use of the pause command and having a few tanks (as widely separated as possible) doing the shoot and scoot on the same turn you can force your target to spend all their time re-targeting and little time shooting back. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchildstein (ii) Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Originally posted by tar: My problem with it, is that I often have trouble judging where to put the "Shoot" endpoint. I either put it too soon, in which case there is no LOS, and thus no shooting. Or I put it too far, in which case I get gunned down before trying to take a shot. Oh well, more practice for me... a couple of things might help... if you already know what you're shooting for, put a target line to it even if you can't see the target unit yet... then go to camera level 1 and press 'tab'... then you can see the target line and how it might 'wrap' around any ridge between your vehicle and the target... then you want to 'scoot' to where the target line 'wraps over' the ridge... to make a long story short, camera level 1 can really help in a shoot and scoot... having a target line is icing on the cake... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vadr Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 My problem with it, is that I often have trouble judging where to put the "Shoot" endpoint. I'm a big fan of shoot & scoot. I think it's one of the best new improvements in the game. It *does* take some care and attention to use effectively. If you have an enemy tank spotted beyond the crest, use the LOS command and check where your LOS turns from orange to black, this is your 'shoot' point. Set your 'shoot' waypoint there or just short of there, and then scoot back. You'll pop up hull-down, take your shot, and then back off. It doesn't always work perfectly. Crews can delay, all sorts of weird AI things can happen, but it's still a major tactical innovation and a good one, IMO. I use it constantly and am normally quite pleased with the results I get. YMMV 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Here's the thread on shoot and scoot that's been referred to: On Shoot & Scoot And here's a test I ran, mentioned on that thread, to see if coming straight back speeds up the scoot part (I found that it did). I also argued for the need of getting a good hulldown position, though I hadn't heard of manchildstein's suggestion, which seems to me like a great idea... *** OK, test run, and I think it WORKS to have the shoot-and-scoot tank come straight back. I ran a test with 8 T-34/85s attacking 8 Tigers (PzVIE late) along 8 separate tracks lined by trees. There was a ridgeline separating the Allied and Axis tanks. The Tigers were presenting their flanks, and the T-34s were given shoot and scoot orders designed to put them in hulldown positions on the ridgeline about 700m from the Tigers. The scoot order had them coming straight back. The first time, the T=34/85s scored two Tiger kills and lost one T-34. It took about 12-14 seconds to reach the apex of the forward order, find the target, fire and reverse. Maybe 18-20 total seconds of exposure from first appearance before reversing completely out of sight. Most of the Tigers got off a shot, but the hulldown protected most of the tanks (with shots hitting the embankment or sailing high) while the T-34s almost all scored hits--not all fatal. As I said, two were actual Tiger kills. I tried it again on turn two. This time the Tigers were ready. Several (but not all) had turned to face forward. But I got two more Tiger kills and lost no T-34s. Overall result: four dead Tigers and one dead T-34. Not bad. This is just a preliminary test but some conclusions I would personally draw are: 1. Coming STRAIGHT back is a very good idea. I'm sure it limits exposure time by a few seconds. 2. Choosing a true hulldown position as the apex of the forward order is important. Look for it carefully. 3. You may not escape being fired on, even by a slow turreted opponent like at Tiger. Hence the importance of hulldown. It's also not a good idea to attack a large number of enemy AFVs this way--they may all be shooting at you before you get away if the exposure time is really 18-20 seconds. It's better to use shoot-and-scoot for one, two, or three on one encounters with a single threatening opponent. If you can hit that one tank from two sides, so much the better. 4. Catching the enemy tank at a disadvantage (such as a flank shot) is wise (so scouting with some infantry beforehand would be a good idea.) 5. All in all, I think you can get very close to the desired hunt-reverse order that redwolf was talking about if you carefully choose your hulldown position and scoot straight back. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hensworth Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 The best use I've seen for shoot and scoot is for close in tank fighting in urban environments : pop out from behind a building, fire one shot (short range = high chance of hitting the target with one shot) and get back to safety behind the building. It works best if you can get 2 tanks either side of an enemy tank that has either no turret or a slow one : tank 1 moves and shoots, opponent rotates tank or turret to face threat on the next turn, tank 2 moves and kills taking advantage of exposed weak armor. The paved surfaces in cities make sure you get away before the enemy tank can bring its gun to bear. Try it in that scenario that has a bunch of T-34s cavorting around in Budapest, Danube Blues I think. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWB Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 One other trick--Shoot & Scoot works forwards. Gives one very nice firing halts actually . . . WWB 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Sounds like a great idea in the right circumstances. Could be very effective, in fact, in urban combat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KEEF888 Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 I love this new command! As with many/most actions in CM, I've found that the better the unit quality, the more effective (i.e. quick with initial movement, firing immediately upon stopping, and a quick get-away) this command becomes. Two or three veteran/elite/crack untis - whether working together in close proximity of each other, or popping up/around from different directions - can be devastating to one's opponent! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFJaykey Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 I have played about a dozen games since getting CMBB, and the most frustrating problem I have with S&S is that often the tanks will not pause long enough in the firing position to get a shot off. I have watched with the units selected and they will advance, get LOS and spot a target, get a good red targeting bar, but start reversing and often be out of LOS before they can get the shot off. Have seen this with regular and veteran crews as well as green. Sometimes I try moving the second waypoint laterally, so the tank has to pivot slightly while in the firing position to buy more time for shooting....this sometimes works but I suspect that when the tank fires while pivoting I am paying the same gunnery penalty as if it were moving. (Right?) Any suggestions, either things I might be doing wrong or things to look for in terms of crew status and etc? Thanks, Matt 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGL12 Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 I think 'q' command should be improved. Like it works now it puts more (unnecesary) work on player (finding right firing pos). If you place firing point too far your tank may be knocked out before it fires which is bad. Worser is that your tank may fire first shot on the way to firing point because it spotted enemy too early, then get there and sit waiting for reload. It would be nice if tank would scan (cover sector) for targets, fire single shot and reverse. Kind of "Move to contact & Rev" but with taking a shot in when something was sighted. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ichadwick Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Here's my situation: I have a tank hidden behind a house and a few trees. Comin over a ridge on both flanks are enemy tanks & other vehicles. They can't see my tank, but if I stand out and hunt, I'll get whacked from both flanks. So I use shoot & scoot to one side, lob a shell at the lead vehicle, scoot back, then do it again on the other side. So far it's worked... at least until they close enough to hit me before I can scoot! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer76 Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Try Jaegermeister as Allies, that will show you what Shoot and Scoot is good for. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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