Russian Training Scenarios

[George MC]

Originally posted by npsbre:

Hi,

Am I the only person who can't get into blowtorchscenarios.com? I've been trying for days.

Hi

I've checked the site out and it works fine. Have you tried following the link at the bottom of this post? Any problems email me at georgemc@blowtorchscenarios.com and I'll email you the whole file. From what I can see from the stats people have been downloading the file nae bother.

Cheers fur noo

George Mc

[konstantine]

Thanks very much JasonC for this, and thanks to GeorgeMc for hosting. I love playing as Russians but I find my win stats aren't all that impressive. This will be a big help.

[SteveP]

To follow up on my previous post about playing 102, I was curious about my ability to kill the StuG on the first turn, so I looked at it in the scenario editor. Perhaps my copy of CMBB is defective, but in the editor, the StuG is positioned so that it is facing roughly northeast -- in a good position and facing to cover likely approaches. The LOS tool also shows that the StuG does not have LOS to any part of the Russian setup zone.

However, when the scenario is run things change. The StuG is in the same position but facing due west. I'm guessing from fiddling with the editor that this may have to do with a quirk of how ownership of map sides has been established. Even stranger is that there is now LOS to the lefthand southernmost corner of the Russian setup zone -- so that a T-34 positioned there gets a free shot (actually more than one shot) to the rear of the StuG. I can't guess why LOS would not be possible in the editor but happens when the scenario is run, unless it's that the re-orientation of the StuG toward the west causes the rear end to move a few feet into LOS.

Anyway, I thought this worth mentioning as far as possibly tweaking these scenarios in the event of becoming an ongoing training vehicle (which I hope is what happens).

Also, a follow-up thought on my quibble about using PZIIILs in 100 and 101. Even though the IIIL certainly ought to be able to stand up to a straight ahead attack from the T-34, in fact it will always cower in such a situation. Don't know why -- maybe just another stupid AI trick. However, the result is that the T-34(s) don't really need to do much work beyond showing up in decent order.

For my own entertainment, I did a little experimenting with other panzers in 100. The IVG(late) provided a good (maybe even slightly tough matchup) without the cowering behavior. It's interesting to note though that this tank is significantly more expensive than the T-34, while the IIIL was priced about the same, and that in itself may be a good lesson about the T-34,

Anyway, I understand that the 100 series scenarios are not intended to be especially difficult challenges, so perhaps the cowering behavior by the IIILs is not something worth changing the scenarios for. So I'll leave my quibble at that.

[juan_gigante]

Major victory in 200. You're right about spots appearing, Jason. In hindsight, I wished I'd made even more use of that little terrain fold to the right. The enemy didn't have any shooters in the forest to the right, and I was able to advance a platoon up there almost totally unmolested. Once they got into that little forest, they were able to make spots for the T-34s and maxims. From there, it was just a matter of how many little setbacks before I won. I was a little disappointed with my mortars; while the 82mm got the gun, the 50mms both broke early and never rallied, and I didn't even notice the 120mm when it came down. As a sidenote, by the end only one T-34 had any HE left, and that was about 5 rounds.

I'm looking forward to 201, and it'll be interesting to see how it works without any tanks to lean on.

[juan_gigante]

Halfway through 201, and I'm really happy with how things are working out. I think as much of my success as anything else is due to my enemy's poor setup. In 200, he had several shooters in shell holes in that big hill in the middle. Those shooters were able to ride my men their whole advance. But this time around, all of his guys are in the scattered forest with the second objective or were in the rough at the first flag. In both those places, I got a lot of spots from guys panicking and running around in the preliminary barrage. I'm trying extra hard to have more eyes up, and I'm getting many more spots. In fact, I'm pretty sure I've spotted nearly all the enemy forces. I killed their gun, but it cost me one of my own. I'm starting to get a little worried about HE, because now I've only got my mortars and one gun with ~20 rounds. But I'm starting to get my infantry to the range where I can engage his sguads effectively with small arms, so it might not be too big of a problem.

[juan_gigante]

Finished 201 with a major victory. Ceasefire after turn 25. He had low morale, I had low ammo. Actually, my infantry still had plenty, but all of my support weapons were out. I was to the range, though, were small arms were all I need. I think what I'm really getting better at is getting spots. I'm still impressed with the rally potential of the infantry. I never understood how resiliant they really are. I thought this one would be harder without tanks, but it certainly seemed easier to me.

[SteveP]

To fellow trainees:

I've discovered what I think is a big virtue of the early scenarios in this training scheme: the fact that they can be played over and over in a minimum amount of time (if you fast forward through the movies). With that in mind, I would like to recommend this approach to learning the lessons of scenario 110. Assuming you've followed Jason's advice on the best way to negotiate the map (i.e., buildings, fence, craters) to get a win, try it over several times, starting from a saved position at around turn 5, 6 or 7. Each time, something different will happen (e.g., a unit will break that didn't break before, or the German MG will take a little longer to suppress, or something else). It's very educational. It's like doing drills in which you are in the position of the platoon commander. I know that doing drills doesn't seem very exciting for something that's supposed to be a game, but it gives you a lot of confidence about how to run a platoon under fire -- even a green platoon. After all, you're a green platoon commander, so doing drills makes sense.

Then when you've gotten that down, try an advance over the terrain slightly to the left, where you don't have the fence and the craters. It's hard and won't work much of the time but well worth the "drill" to figure out how to do it. It may be a sort of epiphany for me, but I'm really intrigued by the idea of a "boot camp" in which one practice these things in the manner of "drills" rather than one-off trials.

One word of caution, though, if you take up this idea on scenario 110. Several times when I was getting close to taking out the MG, the scenario quit on a forced "cease fire." It took me awhile to figure out what was happening, but I think I know the answer. The scenario is set to be a Probe. As a result, if you panic the MG and get your overall ammo load down below 25% of full loadout, you get an automatic ceasefire. This is very common if you are firing everything you've got at the MG for several turns (as you should be). A little disconcerting when you've got the upper hand and suddenly the game quits! I fixed this is the editor by changing it to an Attack.

[JasonC]

j-g - Yes, infantry has rally power. Artillery ammo goes only down, dead tanks do not come back to life, abandoned guns are not remanned during a scenario. But busted infantry is infantry again in 5 minutes. And if not pushed too hard, kept at pinned or better for most units, a large body of infantry can absorb huge amounts of overall firepower and two minutes later fight just as well as they did at the start.

That is a key lesson to have before the 300 series. The 310s are all about using infantry in more favorable situations for it. When you know how much it can stand even in unfavorable conditions, asking a ton from it in favorable ones seems entirely natural.

And that is a key part of fighting like a Russian in CM. The Russians have quite good infantry, so it is a strength to run with. It is more than that, though. "We can take it" is just how Russians fight. They aren't about perfect handling of perfect units, they are about getting something solid out of lots of vanilla ones. Each getting in its licks, in the end more of them than the enemy can stand.

[SteveP]

Another thing I've noticed for the first time in playing 110: the apparent fact that green troops will not fire immediately when the target has been spotted, even when given a covered arc. Don't know what that's all about, but I've seen it happen every time at the distances when the MG is first spotted. The other units simply do not react until I order them to fire. I've come to the conclusion that this is a very important consideration when planning how best to advance, especially with minimal or no cover. It's especially disconcerting when the spot is made at the very beginning of the turn, but most of your units just watch like spectators while one of your squads gets shot to pieces. Anybody else have any thoughts or advice about this?

[John Kettler]

JasonC,

Since I played and won RusTrain 101 already, I had a

peek at the German side. Call me shocked! I'd rate the Panzers in there as practically defanged, based on the AP ammo split. Earnestly suggest you consider much greater allocation of the good stuff

in their loads. Would've had major battle impact in my fight!

Regards,

John Kettler

P.S.

Wouldn't be surprised if you have ammo loads and type breakdowns by turret number ( only half joking).

[Cuirassier]

Jason C, your tactics and scenarios are excellent. On my first try of the second infantry scenario, the one where you command to green platoons, I took the objective by turn 18 and suffered 8 casualties. I figure this isn't too bad. I accomplished this by packet movement and fire superiority. Also I kept the platoons in their original formations and locations from set up, and advanced from there.

The scenarios are great fun and teach hard lessons about combat, where advantages the attacker will normally take for granted are not available. Awesome job!

[Mad Russian]

Scenario 100 just gave me the strangest battle I've ever played in CMBB. I didn't kill the PzIII but did kill one crew member. I lost no crew members.

The flag was contested with the 2 tanks faced off against each other on both sides of the house.

Killing that one German crew member gave me a 100% Victory to 0% for a Total Victory.

Strangest battle I've ever fought.

[John Kettler]

Panther Commander,

Guessing here, but I think what happened is that you zapped the TC, shocking the entire Panzer crew and destroying its ability to control the VL, seeing as how your tank and crew were fully functional and within control radius of the VL.

Regards,

John Kettler

[juan_gigante]

Or perhaps the flag was still contested, but you had caused one casualty, and he had caused none?

[John Kettler]

JasonC,

Permit me to second what SteveP said regarding StuG orientation in RusTrain102. I deployed with one T-34 behind the left scattered tree patch, one in the middle, and one positioned to move up behind the main patch forward and right. At turn one, I not only had LOS to the StuG (near board edge and facing offboard), but proceeded to put three rounds into it, yielding two side penetrations and one rear penetration at ~770m, the last fatal. I believe something needs to be done to prevent first turn Russian LOS to the hapless StuG. Secured objective with HQ tank, infantry remnant originally in area and Tankodesantniki from HQ tank. Advanced right flank tank after destroying hostile ground troops using coordinated HE and MG fires from all tanks. Left flank tank kept Tankodesantniki mounted throughout engagement, much spent Fast moving to make up for initial firing phases while other tanks moved, and at game's end it was slightly forward of the objective, covering left and center . Victory was Total, with zero casualties on my side.

Regards,

John Kettler

[markl]

To npsbre,

If you can not download the scenarios for some reason send me an email to marklaur@tpg.com.au and I will send them to you. The zip file is 203 kb, not very big.

Cheers MarkL

[Crinius]

Scenario 110. I advanced my Platoon through the shadows of the little "village" (4 houses) on the right side. As I reached the most forward house I got sight to the trench. Then I let them advance always 2 at a time to the wooden fence in 10 Meters pushes. The other 2 were doing overwatch. A sound contact popped up and pinned some Squads from time to time. I let them rest to let them recover. As I got all 4 and HQ to the fence I got full ID of the MG Nest. I fired with everything I had. The returning fire pinned some squads from time to time but after about 5 turns I pinned him. Then I let 2 Squads adavance to the craters and take psoition there. They kept up a steady fire on the nest. Then I advanced the other 2 squads and the HQ. At turn 17 he had enough and he abandoned the trench. At turn 18 I had a total victory with 2 wounded. He lost 4 men and 1 captured.

[Christian Knudsen]

Having a hell of a time with 200.

Basically caught between a rock and a hard place - those HMGs on the left totally stop my squads on the left far short of spot range, and usually mess up the main infantry grouping in the center, sometimes even before they get into the depression to the front. Area shelling the the HMGs has virtually no effect, and when I move my left tank up to try and get a spot, it is immediately KO'd by the gun, which then steadfastly resists all shell, mortar, and Maxim fire, usually taking the center tank out while cheerfully being shelled away. Dropping 120mm on the MGs does nothing. Only on the defiladed right side do I enjoy any success, and this is more than made up for by the complete paralysis on the rest of the map.

I think one problem may be that I am slightly bunching up in the center in order to get into the dead ground, but when I attempt to advance up the hill with proper intervals, et al., I get nowhere.

Any suggestions? I realise that I need to provide multiple infantry targets to diffuse the HMG's FP, but with only 2 squads on the left it is difficult to maintain any momentum, and once I stop, it becomes very difficult to start again. I want to avoid using the 122's on the HMG's location - too gamey. I also realise that the key is taking out the gun before I lose 2/3 of my armour, but the damn thing seems indestructable to all mortar and Maxim fire, and just when I think I have it really pinned and crest my center tank for the 76mm coup de grace, it pops up again and my tank goes boom.

Frustrating.

[Mad Russian]

I have yet to beat 110 if the HMG opens fire first. Forunately, I have no trouble beating the HMG if I open fire first. I "move" down the right hand side of the road to the last house. I sneak from there to just in front of the fence.

I "advance" with everybody on the trench using area fire until the HMG is revealed. You get the trench and the HHG never even fires.

[npsbre]

Originally posted by markl:

To npsbre,

If you can not download the scenarios for some reason send me an email to (email) and I will send them to you. The zip file is 203 kb, not very big.

Cheers MarkL

Thanks for the offer, MarkL, but I got it through a proxy connection. If anyone else is having difficulties, he can try http://www.blowtorchscenarios.com.nyud.net:8090/ , it worked for me. (I still can't figure out why I can't get into the site normally though, but oh well.)

Great scenarios. Thanks to JasonC for creating and George Mc for hosting, and all the comments in this thread.

[JasonC]

CK - Don't waste FO fire on mere MGs, it is meant for platoon positions. Target the cover in the center or on the right with it, not the left.

You don't have to use the default deployment if you don't want to. It is meant to show you that you have 2 overwatch groups and an infantry main body, and to show how 4 HQs can suffice for the force.

The left side guys will undoubtedly get pinned in the shellholes without advancing too far, since there are only HQ and 2 squads of them. That is OK, if they just draw off much of the HMG fire they will have done plenty.

If you take out the gun and can send a tank forward on that side, as I described as the "MG silencing game", they will provide the infantry follow up. Along with the 50mms to pin, they can take out a single position on their own, once spots occur. But that can all happen late, you don't need to assault multiple entrenched MGs over open steppe with just 2 squads.

As for killing the gun, the single best weapon at it is the 82mm mortar. It is rather far in the default set up, but can send both HE and smoke as necessary. Typically only 1 round in 3 lands close enough to do anything, and at long range and with a green shooter, than can drop to 1 per minute. But it only takes 2-3 near misses to pin a gun.

The 50mms are limited to 800m range. They need to be close enough to reach the gun. Then they need to fire together. They will tend to pin it only, and only as long as both are firing. 1-2 Maxims or tank MGs will only slow rally, they will not establish any initial pin themselves. 76mm HE will, as readily as the 82mm and with a similar 1 out of 3 rounds landing close enough. But as you noticed, it is only safe to try that if the gun is already pinned.

ATRs can also fire at the gun. They were unlikely to get it themselves, but can help the HMGs slow rally. Basically, though, the 82mm or a 76mm round will go any actual KOing, while the 50mms together can establish a pin, over 2-3 minutes.

For the main assault, the left is only a route to take if you kill the gun quickly and can them advance tanks to silence the MGs. Unlikely, though possible if you get lucky with the gun. Normally you will want the main advance to steer right, instead. The principle involved is reinforce success, not failure. You don't have to master every portion of the defense everywhere, you only need to break it down in a few places and back those places up with enough of your force.

On the right, using the default set up, you have 2 squads and HQ headed for the right side woods. If you put 120s on it on turn 2, you can have HE plastering the place by turn 8 at the latest. Tanks can suppliment that and start earlier. That's if the 122s go on the center cover (which is the best single FO shot, and the 122s are your strongest FO, so it makes sense). If you want to accelerate the right side advance, reverse the FO allocation. In that case, 122s hit the right front woods early, while 120s hit the center starting turn 7.

Some combo of early 122s, early tanks, and turn 7-8 120s, hits the right front woods. A tank should make sure to finish the house, to ruble. A tank should overwatch afterward, with main gun and MGs. The right side MGs should also be overwatching. With that kind of prep, HQ and 2 squads can readily take the right side woods area.

The main body can follow that route or make for the rough in the center, steering to go around the wire on its right side. Yes they may take MG fire from their left. They have shellholes to hide it, and the left side masking advance to draw off fire. When they make it up to the rocky they will be immune to cover panic and reasonably protected from small arms. You have to avoid bunching, that is the main thing. Get a few squads onto the rough, and then slowly feed in another squad per minute as those press on and make room.

HE is another thing that will hurt you if you bunch. There is enemy mortar fire, and if the gun is alive its HE. Either will pin widely even in the rough, if you are too bunched. If a minute of either only pins a squad, you can absorb it. He only has ammo to keep that up for about 5 minutes. Even if a few instances of it result in breaks or routs, you may recover from those eventually with only rattle and a few men lost, or at worst a couple of squads lost. Bunching can turn that into a ruinous "everybody pinned and a third routed", so you absolutely cannot bunch up.

The guys up on the rough will take small arms fire. But they will also get spots of the guys doing it. Those become the aim points for the 120 (walk it over in 100m shifts from whereever it was aimed), the tanks, the 50mms, the MGs, and of course the infantry that has made it to the rough or right side front woods.

Do not press. Gradually shoot your way through the defenders while expanding the infantry in the center rough. The idea is to make that center rough region a constant firepower emitter, and to take the enemy shots while in 25% cover. As the enemy goes down, you can look at advances farther, from the center squads or the right. (Notice the company HQ and right side platoon HQ can "swing" squads to each other). But the firefight should be won while the main body is in the rough area.

If the gun proves invulnerable, keep the tanks on the right, absorb the gun's quite limited HE supply and rally through it, and then just ignore the thing. If you don't give it a tank to eat, it can't hurt anything. Sure it is worse to have your tank movements so restricted, but his gun doesn't move at all, and doesn't have the HE load to punish infantry all day, like your T-34s can if you keep them alive.

[Ted]

Count me in

tramos1@optonline.net

Thanks!

[SteveP]

PC, I'm curious about your experience with using area fire in 110. I tried it several times and decided that it was a waste of time and ammo in this situation. Did you spread your platoon's fire along the whole length of the trench, or aim it all at the point where you knew the MG was lurking? If the latter, I could see how that might have close to the same effect as firing after you got the spot.

[Melnibone]

Area fire along the whole trench can work just fine aginst the AI. As soon as I spotted the trench I spread every units fire along it - and continued short advances. By the time I spotted the MG he was crawling out the back of the trench No losses - the MG never fired a shot. Obviously if he had been under human control he would have opened fire a lot sooner.

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by SteveP:

PC, I'm curious about your experience with using area fire in 110. I tried it several times and decided that it was a waste of time and ammo in this situation. Did you spread your platoon's fire along the whole length of the trench, or aim it all at the point where you knew the MG was lurking? If the latter, I could see how that might have close to the same effect as firing after you got the spot.

I fired along the whole trench. I didn't want to upset the results by giving myself foreknowledge of the situation. My standard rule is to always prep-fire trenches when I run across them. That makes them GREAT decoys if you leave them empty in an area. Let's the attacker waste the time and ammo to clear an empty trench.

The alternative is to assume it's empty and have that HMG rip you from one end to the other.