Russian Training Scenarios

[jtcm]

Had a whiz through various scenarios, and lost all of them (sorry for the "grazing" approach). But fun.

100: in a real game, I don't think I would play cat and mouse with the PzIII for fear of a long range o'watch shot

110: after a few tries, I approached from the left, up to the patch of woods there. Advanced one squad 30 m or so, and spotted the trench. Ordered full plt. speculative fire on the trench, at about 200 m. Much to my surprise, the HMG team actually flinched and ran. (I had imagined trenches to be much tougher)

[JasonC]

John K - thanks for the 101 AAR. As you found, there is no real difficulty killing the plain IIIs from the front. Yes the rounds can ricochet from the turret front, but they can also go in. That variability comes from the "round" rating, and the fact that the penetration and effective armor rating are so close. You don't need a flank shot against them at the ranges first LOS typically occurs on this sort of "crown of a hill" situation.

In fact, it is somewhat better to stay together to ensure all 3 T-34s get LOS to the same Panzer at the same time. They will kill it, front or not. And will often get an engagement in sequence, high odds both times. If you try to flank with one on fast, on the other hand, you risk putting the flanker in LOS of both Panzers at the same time your others aren't in LOS yet. That can even the odds and make it all riskier.

Good infantry scouting can avoid piecemeal engagement by telling you where they are and the location of first LOS. And you can win sometimes even engaging piecemeal. But it is the only way to lose this one, really, to get caught in a piecemeal engagement and get bad luck about a couple of the duels.

[JasonC]

jtcm - yes the left approach does offer better cover near the objective. The difficulty with it is the immediately prior stretch of open, still beyond full spot range. But as you found, spotting range to the trench can be sufficient, if combined with area fire. The usual result is the area fire keeps their heads down while somebody makes it to the good cover, and gets the spot if the MG comes heads up at some point.

The variation with area fire is higher - it isn't certain to work like spotted fire is. In part because you can put it on the wrong spot (woods instead of trench, wrong end of the trench - that can get "alerted" but rarely "pinned").

The left approach comes in to its own in 111, with the second shooter to worry about, off on your right. If one platoon goes that way, it will frequently make the woods successfully, despite some flanking fire risks. The range to the right-side shooter is pretty long. And the Russian MGs and mortar can suppress the trench as soon as it is seen, quite effectively.

One issue in 111, in fact, is whether you need to take out the right side MG to win. In general, no you do not. You can KO the center one and get onto the objective without ever locating the right side one completely, and without tossing area fire at it, or no more than some minor area fire from one MG. It is better to hit the probable location with a minute of 82mm HE, though (using the bulk of the HE on the center shooter). You can also mask the right side one with 82mm smoke, at a critical time for the approach to the woods.

[Christian Knudsen]

Of course you are right JasonC - for a defender a major question centers around what range one should open up at. Even in a hasty defense, strict orders are given regarding engagement range, with different levels (ie pl cmdr, sect cmdr, individual troop) allowed weapons free at different ranges, some surprisingly short, depending on terrain.

A key factor here is that as a defender one wishes to maximise the firepower inflicted while not letting the enemy get too close. I used 600-800m because it is what we train to nowadays in a platoon defense, but I would rarely open up that far out in CM.

I am going to take another crack at 110, but this time using a split platoon - one or two squads as a firebase and the remainder with the platoon cmdr approaching/assaulting the trench. This is the way we would do it today, but maybe it is expecting a little much from green troops, especially as the firebase will have reduced FP at the slightly longer range, and will be out of command. I tried it once, and failed, but I spent insufficient time winning the firefight, and got my assault team hopelessly pinned, etc. Ran out of ammo with the firebase, too. We'll see how it goes.

PS - I have a feeling that as we all work through these this is going to turn into a monster thread - why don't we open a seperate thread for discussion of the 200, 300, and 400 level scenarios?

[juan_gigante]

In 110, the only way I felt secure with my firebase was to have three squads firing and one advancing - less than that and the firebase wasn't enough, until you've got full spot.

Here's a speculative question. You only have a sound contact or only have the trench spotted. Should you concentrate fire on that sort of semi-spot, or should you rely on caution and not assume that the semi-spot is correct?

[David Chapuis]

Originally posted by JasonC:

part of the idea of this thread is to figure what should be in those briefings, and whether the scenarios need to be tweaked first. In the end, yes I want full briefings, on line AARs, help commentary, etc. But we walk first.

Jason, I wonder if the 110 scenario should be moved back a bit, or maybe another scenario added before that. Do you really feel like advancing green inf over open ground with no heavy weapon fire support is lesson nbr1? Perhaps advancing the same platoon with one maxim first. And then trying without the maxim.

Also, for 110 you dont mention anything about half squads (either in the instructions or in your posts here). I think it makes the scenario much easier to use a half squad or two to get a spot, which leaves you 4 lmg as shooters. If you just have 3 full squads with lmg firing, you dont always get a pin on that german HMG - and until you do, you cant win this.

So for whatever that is worth. My compliments though on whole enterprise.

[Ales Dvorak]

Damn, my friend has no problem with 110..he smash it in first take...he says..it was easy....damn I've lost twice...now you know why I'm here....

[Christian Knudsen]

So I tried 110 again with half the platoon acting as a firebase in the two buildings next to the road, and 2 squads and the LT advancing. It appears that two green squads do not at this period possess the firepower neccessary to suppress a regular entrenched german out-of-command HMG, even at full spot. The firebase was providing about 100 FP total.

Basically, my advancing squads got shot to hell (one actually eliminated). It surprises me that this is the case, and really illustrates the point about proper interval - basically you need to provide a multiplicity of targets.

Juan_Gigante, did you succeed with a three-squad firebase? This would provide about 150 FP on the target, but I imagine pushing only 1 squad up would make the full spot very difficult

[SteveP]

Jason: What a wonderful idea! It would be great to see something like this for other nationalities.

Some thoughts on 100-102. I'm wondering about the choice of German tank in 100 and 101. I found it difficult to lose, almost no matter what I did. I played 100 six or seven times and lost only once when my T-34 had it's gun disabled (and that was when i just cruised over the hill alongside the flag, not even trying to protect myself). At least in my experience the PZIII doesn't seem able to go toe-to-toe with a T-34.

I also easily won 101 twice, using a spread out formation (not what you recommend) both times. The first time it was easy; the second time, I had one of my T-34's routed, but the others finished the job with no problem.

I won 102 twice, first on turn 3, the second time on turn 1. The StuG was positioned in such a way that I could hit it in the rear on turn one -- I hadn't realized that until I hit go after setup. The other time, I simply ran the T-34's in a spread formation up to shooting positions and one of them took out the StuG fairly quickly.

A funny thing is that the first times I played 101 and 102, I didn't notice the passengers on the T-34s. They just ended up going along for the ride.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the first three scenarios. Looking forward to the next group.

[juan_gigante]

Well, Christian, I succeeded in that none of my squads were routed of the board or totally destroyed. I failed in that moving one squad at a time in 30 meter bounds takes a really long time and I only got a full spot around turn 17 or 18 - not enough time to really do much. I made a special copy of 110 where I give myself a few extra turns, and I can win that fine now, but I still can't do 110 in 20 turns.

[JasonC]

David - yes I believe advancing in open ground with touchy infantry is the absolute basic thing to know about infantry combat in CMBB and CMAK. Everything else builds on that, getting that part correct.

People who can't do it lean on other things and get all sorts of bad habits as a result. It is fine to be able to exploit other things, but it is not fine to need them. Learn this one lesson right at the outset, and everything infantry does will make sense. Don't learn it, and you will be limping in the infantry war for life.

If you really find it far too hard, edit the scenario to give the Russian HQ +1 command and +1 morale, and make them regulars rather than greens. Should be entirely straightforward then, with the tactics already described. Drop one or the other and try again. When you've seen how do-able it is for them, you will understand the greens just have a harder time getting through the hump of the last 50m or so before spotting range, after which it gets easy.

On the fire base discussion, the fire base once you have a full spot is absolutely everything for 2-3 minutes. Mad minute. All fire, no movement. Fire dominance is what takes ground. After they are pinned, one unit can advance to grenade and good SMG range. But it is the fire that does it, and that last move is largely to save ammo.

Before you have a full spot, on the other hand, you need the entire platoon working to get close. Companies provide bases of fire from heavy weapons, but infantry forces smaller than a platoon are too weak for real offensive maneuver. Somebody is always going to be the focus of enemy fire, and pinned badly as a result. Somebody else has to be moving. If that is all you have, one will he getting pinned while the other is still cowering and you won't get very far. Use the whole thing to get to spot range, then fire with the whole thing once you do get a spot.

As for the idea of sending one green half squad instead, try it if you like. It won't get anywhere. Half squads have dramatically lower morale than full squads and this is especially true of greens. If doing recon by death toward someone close enough for your main body to spot if he fires, who just isn't firing yet, then sure a half squad scout is the right thing. But he won't spot anything, he won't live long enough. To first get anybody that close, though, you need morale and rally power.

On Pz IIIs with 50L60 and 20+50mm front armor, they are marginally inferior to T-34s. But they can and will penetrate a T-34 turret front, at about the same range the reverse becomes possible. Not all enemy armor is uber, and one needs to know how to handle armor confidently when either side can kill. It is not meant to be particularly difficult - 101 should be a walk e.g. 102 should be if you know what to do, while you can lose 1-3 tanks if you do not (and sometimes 1 even if you do).

[Christian Knudsen]

Funny enough Juan, it actually works much better advancing the platoon using fire and movemant and integral overwatch - two squads move, two fire - than by using a secure but seperate firebase. I guess green troops really need to be close up to hit that trench effectively.

Totally counter to all the infantry tactics I've been taught, but I assume that if you could get a secure firebase up to about 100m, you could fire the platoon in just fine. From 200m I just waste a lot of ammo to no effect. I guess that firebase tactics require an EFFECTIVE firebase. Who Knew?

[juan_gigante]

Oh, I used fire and movement, overwatch, all that jazz - it was just more like "one turn A moves, next B moves, next C moves, then A again" and so forth. Who ever isn't moving is pouring in fire to suspected hiding spots. Because personally, I feel like it's kind of wrong to walk off the battlefield with any ammo left, and those early Russian squads have, what, 49? That's enough for me to fire at suspected enemy positions, even before I get a sound contact. Would it be poor tactics in real life? Yup. Would it be poor tactics in a game of CMBB bigger than this? Prolly. But just shooting at all, even if it's mostly ineffective, makes me feel more confident.

[John Kettler]

JasonC,

Concerning RusTrain 101, do you happen to know whether the Panzers in the scenario had PzGr40 in their loads? Would be astounded if by this point in the war they didn't, considering the T-34 was by then the default tank for the Russians.

Regards,

John Kettler

[JasonC]

Now, 200. Only a couple have mentioned playing that one yet, and one of the problems encountered was ATGs aka PAK.

The first thing to notice in this one is that the Russians have a boatload of HE. They aren't just doing infantry over open ground drills anymore. Now we really see how it is fire that takes ground.

You get a 122mm gun module, conscript. It is meant for a "map fire" shoot, either prep or delayed. Pick a covered area and it will hit it very hard over the course of 4 minutes. Little will remain under its footprint. The woods n' house forward on your right are one possible target, if you attack there early. Or the big woods in the center.

You have a 120mm mortar module, green. It is meant as your "reactive" fire module. Keep the FO stationary and safe in your set up area. Don't order it to fire on turn 1 or you just get more prep. Instead wait until turn 2. The delay is long - 6 minutes, meaning turn 7 is the first time its shells can arrive. Adjusts will bump the time 1-2 minutes.

Pick a spot you did not use the 122s on, that your infantry will not reach in the first 7 minutes (which is most places - the forward right woods n' house are probably too close). If there are other covered areas within about 200m that's good. Drop these a few shells at a time, calling for the real fire when your own men are close. Shifts to bump the time can postpone the barrage. When ready, leave it stationary for a full minute or minute and a half of fire. It won't annihilate quite like the 122 full module, but it will pin everyone under the footprint and break a fair fraction of them.

Then you also have 3 T-34s with large ammo loads, sporting about 200 rounds of 76mm HE between them. Here is the first key to this one. *Don't wait for spots to chuck HE from the tanks*. Start firing it on turn 1. Prep covered areas with minutes of T-34 fire on each tile. When the T-34s are down to 35 HE or so apiece, lay off the HE and wait for visible targets. They can still spray MG fire.

Where do the T-34s need to be? Not way forward. They want LOS, and don't want to aim at reverse slopes (grazing LOS will get many long "overs" while shorts will hit the slope in front). You only need LOS to what you plan to blow up. Low ground is safest otherwise. It limits LOS from enemy ATGs. It means if they do get a shot, it is likely to be hull down, a smaller target. And that may also make it possible to break LOS with a short reverse. You only have to move them up to get LOS to some new spot, and one at a time, not the whole map.

You will probably lose a T-34 and maybe 2 at some point, finding the enemy gun. You want to keep it to 1, and *you want to have already tossed most of the HE from the tanks you do lose*. Get your licks in.

When you do find the gun, the first orders phase, get any tanks in LOS out of LOS ASAP. Fire at the gun with everything you have - tanks, all your mortars especially, and foot HMG teams. You want him to duck long enough for your tanks to get out of sight. Then put the mortars on him until he goes down hard. If you see a flag, put an HMG on the location to prevent rally, and the 50mms too if they can.

The heavy weapons are meant to neutralize guns, in order to let the tanks help the infantry. The tanks can fire back the turn they are caught, but they are too valuable to risk against a gun after that, if you can help it. You should find there are spots on the map his gun can't cover, from which you can see at least some defender locations. Put your tanks in such places until the gun is dead, or if you can't kill it (e.g. mortars gun out of ammo with it alive).

Your HE storm is supposed to "do" most of the enemy infantry. HMGs and tanks using only their MGs to save ammo, can shoot up the men the bigger shells send running, to prevent them from rallying. Your 47 ammo single LMG squads can do this too, in a pinch. You don't need more than one shooter each.

Well then, you've got 12 squads to close with behind the HE storm. Use foxhole cover and the advance drills you already learned. Use the better rough and tree patches to actually firefight from. Also, if you face a real fight with enemy infantry, pause your own infantry - shooting only, not moving - until you can crawl a tank into LOS of that group of enemies, or drop the 120s on them. Let the HE do most of the work against his squad infantry.

His MGs will harass you from range, giving only sound contacts. You are used to it. Don't waste too much fire on them, hit things you can see. Instead, shy away from known MGs, go into cover with the units nearest them (even if it means they don't make progress right away), and don't bunch up. Move forward where you have tanks and 120 fire missions.

The name of the game isn't grabbing area, it is clobbering defenders. HE first, squads behind it to wipe them out. Stop to shoot in any cover or none, if you have a target. The nearest platoon advances into cover the enemy holds, only after they are thoroughly trashed by fire.

If you have killed the gun and have tanks alive, you can play the MG silencing game. That means you drive a tank close to a sound contact to get a spot. If they go quiet (as humans will), then fine, they live but the fire slackens. If they keep firing, then your tank should get a spot once close enough, and will blow them up in a single minute. The right range for this is about 100 yards. That is far enough a tank with functioning MGs is safe from infantry, even without infantry of its own.

Don't waste your squad infantry ammo at ranges too long. I like 150m covered arcs for the 2 LMG squads. The single LMG ones have more ammo, and can used 200-250m arcs. The tanks and MMGs can fire indefinitely.

If you apply your total firepower at sensible targets, it is quite hard for the limited defenders to stand in front of you, and you will win. Be patient. Don't rush, it is not a race to the flags. 25 minutes is enough to expend your ammo, and your ammo is more than enough to smash the defenders. As long as you don't waste it on inappropriate targets.

[juan_gigante]

I'm halfway through 200 right now, and getting mixed results. I've spotted and eliminated three enemy squads, and I'm pretty sure I killed their gun. But it's turn 13, and my infantry have advanced a total of about 100 meters. Unseen shooters pin EVERYONE who goes out from cover, and stay unseen. I've got one platoon flanking right to basically no resistance, but they'll get to the objective around turn 50 at the rate they're going now. I'm thinking about moving up one of the T-34s in hopes to maybe relieve some of the pressure on the infantry. Honestly, I don't know how on earth I will get any spots on the shooters in the trees to the back and scattered around the steppe. Perhaps I will also start advancing with more squads at a time. After all, my T-34s, maxims, etc, should be a decent firebase, and more infantry advancing at once will mean more targets for enemy shooters to spread their fire on. I'm not 100% on that tactic yet, though. We'll see how this goes.

Jason, reckon it's okay to look in the editor at the enemy's OoB to check to see what they've got left? I'm really tempted to do this, but I fear it might be cheating (or demoralizing to find out my entire advance is being held up by an HMG-42 and one squad).

[Christian Knudsen]

just had a crack at 111.

First Time Oot - managed a victory, but it was messy, as the right hand platoon got bunched up and shot up at the final house before the fence. The left platoon started off to the stone wall and got up to the road before being engaged. One of my MGs was shot up trying to move to the last house on the right. (I had planned for more enemy near the objective, not out in the middle of nowhere. Whoops) I basically used smoke and HE, plus the recovering right platoon to area fire the fence/trees location while the MG and the left platoon took care of the trench, which it did, barely. I then switched the left platoon to area fire and advanced with the right platoon. By end Turn 20 I was victorious thanks to the flag, but the right MG's days were numbered.

Second time Oot - moved the left platoon up to the house/scattered trees, and the right platoon up to the last house on the far right side, with MGs and 82mm in the rear slightly. Started the left platoon off first, started area firing the trench with mortar and MG as soon as it appeared. Got hung up when the right HMG opened up, but then switched 82mm and one MG onto the fence/trees and got one squad into spot range in all the confusion. Once spotted, I let the trench have it with the left platoon and one MG, and got the HMG routing and dead very quickly. Switched all fires onto the right, and started advancing the right platoon, which very quickly spotted the HMG and as quickly killed it. All finished by turn 13 with only 1 friendly casualty!

I did notice during the second try that spotting was way faster, and from what seemed to be considerably longer ranges. Any theories as to why?

On to 112!

[JasonC]

C.K. - thanks for the AARs. You've got the hang of 111 obviously. As for difference in spotting range, suppression makes a difference. Pinned guys don't spot very well. A lot of guys in good order can get spots at twice the range of a few crawling under fire.

[Christian Knudsen]

Tried 112.

Basic same setup as 111, but put the arty for turn 8 on the flag. As it turns out this was way too long; I could easily have done it on turn 4, and possibly even on turn 3 - a 122 battery with 30 rds fires over about five turns, so my assault ended up getting held up. Same general start as in 111, with left platoon moving first, then area fires from heavy weapons and right platoon onto firing right HMG to flush it out. I was able to devote more attention to this lone HMG with the arty falling near the trench, so he disappeared pretty quickly. Meanwhile, after the arty stopped (about turn 13), I resumed my advance, only to face a counterattack against my left platoon from the extra enemy, which had up to then stayed quiet. This was broken up pretty quickly by the company's fire, and the AI auto-ceasefired around turn 17, with about 9 friendly casualties.

If I were to do it again, I would shift the right platoon more to the left into the 'village', and let it be a better-positioned firebase than it was. With a couple of MGs and an 82mm, a lone HMG in a foxhole is not going to last that long provided one is smart with the area fire and can flush it out. Another possibility is to use the left platoon as a firebase, and assault the trench with the right platoon, although the firing positions for the left platoon are a lot less secure...

Oh well, On to 200.

[JasonC]

j-g - You have to let HE do some of the work, area fire at likely targets rather than waiting for spots. There is more approach cover than you seem to think, especially with elevation changes taken into account.

Don't look in the editor, no. You can play through the fight again with intel gained from the last time, if you don't win the first time out. But not during a game. Think of it as a second attempt by a different part of the battalion.

One good route forward is to your right front. If you put the 122s on that patch of trees early, you can clobber anything in the area beyond hope of firing at you. Tank and foot MGs can cut up the guys that run. If the house there isn't demolished by the barrage, one turn by one tank will finish it.

There is strong ranged fire from the enemy left, but the lay of the ground limits what they can do all the way to your right, early.

Your 120s should target the center in this case, on turn 2. Since that won't arrive until turn 7 at the earliest, you can toss 76mm from the tanks in the meantime.

Keep interval, but on the chosen routes of advance, send a squad every 30m or so, with another wave of them behind. Short advance and hide. There is decent rocky cover shy of the woods patch which you should be able to reach while the shells are still falling. It is less than 150m after that, against busted men. Have a tank overwatching, along with MGs and some of the mortars. If you pick up a shooter in those woods themselves, do not rush. Pause where you are, fire with everybody. They will go down.

Shooters from farther away, on the other hand, go right on advancing into the woods and rubble. Area fire with the tanks at probable locations if you have sound contact shooters ahead of you. But the infantry just pushes for the shelled area. Between the woods, rubble, and fresh shellholes, you should easily be able to fit a platoon in that area. They will rally there - long range fire into cover won't even keep you pinned.

Next you have to choose where to extend the advance. Inward there is more rough, though in the crown of a rise that can be seen from the left front. That is one possibility. The other is ahead on the right, angling inward only slightly. 120s and tank fire ahead of the infantry. When men step out from the woods area, fill the woods up with another set from farther back and have them ready to fire. You can move a tank or two up there, too.

Don't worry about avoiding all incoming. You can afford to take some incoming, you have over 100 infantry to absord fire. Just blow up the shooting locations to make them pay. Worry about how fast you are burning through all the defenders, not how fast you are gaining ground. They won't hold anything with routed men.

[JasonC]

C-K - it obviously worked for you, in part because the AI left cover with his infantry (the "counterattack" you mention). It is harder to dislodge them as you played it, if they stay put.

The 122 battery is overkill on the center area, which the mortar is sufficient to suppress with a few minutes of HE (and some help from the MGs to prevent rally). That frees the 122s for the largest area of cover, your left.

It is natural to do it your way, though - that is in fact the reason for the German deployment, with the bulk of the force off the flag rather than on it. If they were on it, they'd be under the most obvious barrage, without enough cover to deploy properly.

After you've played this once, a trick to keep it interesting the next time is to allow the AI free set up. (You can't get away with that in all games, but you can here). The second HMG will go somewhere away from the flag to providing flanking fire - but you won't immediately know where.

[76mm]

I haven't read all of the posts--are the scenarios posted on a website yet? If not, I could probably do it. Let me know!

[ December 03, 2005, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: 76mm ]

[JasonC]

Yes, see page 2...

[JasonC]

One more point about 200 for j-g - for most of the enemies you can use your FOs or tank fire as your "HE ahead", and either will work. But trench positions are a special case, being rather resistent to indirect HE. There is a large difference in effect between a round that hits within the trench icon and one that lands outside it, even close. And the scatter of indirect fire puts almost all the rounds outside the small actual trench areas. Stone buildings are similar this way.

For those, you want direct fire, to put rounds actually in the trench. If right behind a crest you want your mortars for it. Otherwise the tanks are actually better at it and have the ammo to do more of it. A key here is getting people close enough to spot all the trenches in a position you plan to attack. In practice, if you have men 150m out, you will see trenches deep enough in that you can see the basic layout. After you see them, you need to work them over with tanks (or mortars), then advance. An FO mission won't have the same impact.

This is actually more noticable in 201, because there prep fire arty has to do most of the work - you don't get any tanks, but have lots of 122mm. But you do have a few on map guns to help with the cases only direct fire can readily handle.

[npsbre]

Hi,

Am I the only person who can't get into blowtorchscenarios.com? I've been trying for days.