Russian Training Scenarios

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by SteveP:

PC:

Zwolo has this exactly right. And it is a systemic factor of some consequence in the whole play of scenarios 110-112. Despite what it shows in the Scenario Editor, the AI (the Strat AI, if that's what it is called, not the TacAI) will turn the HG immediately around, even before it can spot any Russians in the distance, because it is expecting the Russians to come from the other direction. It will keep it facing the wrong way until it senses the Russians coming up from behind or gets into a fire fight for some other reason. The reason for this is because of the map side ownership set in the Scenario parameters.

An additional point about this that I haven't made yet, is that whenever the HG finally spots your squads and turns around to shoot, the Russians will soon break for cover. As soon as they are in cover, and no longer seen, the HG will turn back around and forget that you were ever behind him. This is because the AI has no memory. This is why players discover that they are able, through trial and error, to get their squads close enough before the MG senses them. The problem, if there is one, is that the player does not know why he is able to do this, and could readily reach wrong conclusions about the resiliency of this platoon closing on a HMG in this relatively open terrain.

If you want to test this out for yourself, without going into the Scenario Editor, simply play yourself using Hot Seat, and watch how differently the MG behaves (don't give it any orders, just let the TacAI control it). The reason for the difference is that the Strat AI is shut off in this mode.

The facing quirk also exists in 100-102, but it isn't as noticeable except in 102, because the Germans are facing 90 degrees away from the Russian's line of approach, rather than 180 degrees, and the placement of the flag causes the German tanks to reorient themselves in the proper direction during the first turn (at least I think that is what happens).

The 200 series also has a bias that is similar to 100-102. I haven't played these much so though I know there's a noticeable impact, I'm not sure how significant it is. This quirk doesn't show up in the 300 and 400 series.

I hope this is starting to become clear to everyone, because I don't want to beat this dead horse any more than necessary for its own good.

That is a simple enough fix. Change the map side ownership in the editor to Axis - west and Allied - east. I'm sure this was an unintentional mistake on Jason's part.

What REALLY upsets me about this is that the HMG tore me apart while facing the WRONG way!!!

AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! :mad:

[juan_gigante]

Got back into these after a little time off, and just polished off 310. It was a fun little firefight, if a bit easy, but one thing really irritated me: the German plane. All 4 of my casualties were from it, and it broke/routed an entire platoon of rifles. Granted, I didn't need them, but still, it was a little frustarating.

[juan_gigante]

Finished 311. Definately more of a challenge than 310. Still got a total victory after an enemy auto-surrender, but it took some effort, and I pushed my troops to the absolute limit.

3 lessons learned/thoughts thought:

With your enemies in foxholes, you couldn't always rely on that "instant break" from 900 incoming firepower points. A single squad in a foxhole could hold up a full SMG platoon for a turn if it got the drop on them. If the enemy had a real MLR in the woods just to the right of the woods, I would really have had to change my strategy to crack it. Or I would go around.

Ski troops are awful fast on skis. But I think in my desire to keep their skis on, I kept on using "move" and "fast" for too long.

Snow tires. I usually don't play winter scenarios, and especially coming out of 310 where I was able to make slashing, quick moves with my SMG units, my forces found exhaustion to be their worst foe. This was even worse when a unit broke or replotted moves to avoid fire, because those 50 meter sneaks the TacAI adds are killers. It seemed the whole time that my main force would advance for a turn, rest a turn, repeat. Lesson: make the enemy move, not you.

Also, those mortars really helped. I underestimated the effectiveness of treebursts against foxholes going into this.

[JasonC]

310 should be easy yes. The Germans are supposed to have all the latest technology, thus things like the plane and an FO and heavy weapons. The Russians have sheer numbers, and their characteristic mix of specialist infantry types. Guess which one works better in the woods - that is the point. It also gives you a chance to experiment with the different infantry types to see which one to use for which tactical task.

311 you saw most of the lessons. Skis are very fast and don't tire people out on "move", but you have to use them in the "backfield" to keep them and to avoid giving the enemy breaking shots. A key to doing that is the two line idea, where a front rank finds the enemy and the rear rank maneuvers freely LOS distance farther back in the trees. You can use that to find the whole defense but only try to seriously break it along one axis, where you need to.

Another lesson is attacking fortified woods positions. The Germans are dug in and have help in the form of obstacles and TRP arty (though the AI isn't great with the last). These are best dismantled gradually, one position at a time. Making full use of the woods to LOS-isolate the selected position for a many-on-few, and to get men close enough to clear the rear of any obstacle encountered, before trying to cross or skirt it. Enemy positions melt, even if the obstacles don't.

On the 50mm, yes they are quite useful in FP terms, because all HE is much less sensitive to good cover than infantry fire is. And they ski, medium speed move, making it easy to get them to the HQ with LOS to the target you want to hit. They aren't stationary supporting weapons but a screwdriver in your toolbox, meant to move around in the second rank picking shots. Once they pin somebody it is easy to send a squad or two in for the kill.

Let me know how 312 goes - it tries to tackle the same German position at night with Russian specialist assault infantry, rather than ski troops in winter.

[Michael Dorosh]

Incidentally, Jason, I was wondering what the status of the Kursk campaign from the summer was? I've tried to email you but no response. A simple "it's on" or "it's off" would be quite satisfying if you could respond, either here or in an email to me at madorosh@shaw.ca or to Adam....This was the CMx10 campaign you were GMing.

[knalla]

Jason

I'd appreciate if you can send me the zip file or point me to any place I can download it.

Thanks in advance, and many thanks for all the useful info you are being writing in this forum, I'm a much better player since I found it.

process_black@hotmail.com

[juan_gigante]

Finished 312 and 315. 312 was an absolute bloodbath on both sides. I got a major victory, but it seemed like at any given point in time, 1/3rd of my force was pinned, and the ambushes the AI was throwing at me caused heavy morale damage. 2 SMG platoons advancing, one enemy squad popped up, pins one platoon, other platoon kills him, and advance forward. The problem is that if you use move to contact, your troops are "moving" when they take fire, and hit the dirt very easily. But if you use advance, they will often continue moving when the enemy pops up, so they are less effective because they are up and walking around as opposed to just firing. I think that a decent human could win this as German. Maybe I'll give it a try.

315 went down all right. I was hurt by a horrible setup on my part. I spread my forces out waaaaay too much, and I set several key AT ambushes with the Rifle squads rather than Pioneer squads. I killed the AC with a standard "hiding Pioneers" ambush, but I had a much harder time with the others. I revealed enough of my right flank killing the AC and the enemy infantry that the AI sent two of the Panzers over to the left, where Pioneers got them. For the last two tanks, though, I was nearly out of Pioneer squads (the ones I had nearby were either out of demo packs or shattered by HE), so I was reduced to trying to get them with Rifle squads while a few squads I had a ways off came over to reinforce. Eventually I got them, but not after fairly heavy casualties. I think if I tried it again, I could do much better. Still, a victory is a victory, right? Going to hit up the 320s this evening, hopefully.

[Cipher]

It would be great to have this training Zip, please send it to me joestephens88@yahoo.com

[George MC]

Hi

For the newbies to this thread looking for the training scenarios you can get em here at www.blowtorchscenarios.com

Just click on the Russian Training Scenarios link and all will be revealed

Cheers fur noo

George

[juan_gigante]

I had an idea to make 315 fair for H2H. Give the Germans another platoon so they'll have enough troops to do anything, but make all the Soviet troops Pioneers. It seems fair to me, as that means that any Soviet squad has good AT capacity, but the Germans have the numbers a bit fairer.

Just finished 316. I felt that in the city, I was able to move around my forces inside of defensive perimeter a lot better. Unfortunately, I lost my T-34 the first turn, and one of my T-70s around turn 5, so I had to rely heavily on Pioneers to kill tanks. I was very impressed with the AT rifles - each one got a halftrack. Ended up with an AI auto-surrender and a major victory. Of all the training scenarios I've played so far, I think that was the one that was the most balanced and the most like a "real" scenario.

[JasonC]

j-g - No, if the Germans got a second infantry platoon in 315, they would be too heavily favored. Seriously. And there would be no point in balancing that again by giving the Russians ATGs, for example - it would just defeat the point of the scenario.

[juan_gigante]

Yeah, I guess. Finished 320 with a total victory. It was kind of fun being on the other side from the 200s. I thought it dragged itself too long, but I guess that's what happens. I killed the all the enemy vehicles around turn 6, and from there on, it was just pinging at distant enemy infantry, keeping their heads down. I had to retreat my guys from that front trench after they ran out of ammo, but only took 2 casualities, so I guess it worked out fine.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JasonC:

j-g - No, if the Germans got a second infantry platoon in 315, they would be too heavily favored. Seriously. And there would be no point in balancing that again by giving the Russians ATGs, for example - it would just defeat the point of the scenario.

Incidentally, Jason, I was wondering what the status of the Kursk campaign from the summer was? I've tried to email you but no response. A simple "it's on" or "it's off" would be quite satisfying if you could respond, either here or in an email to me at madorosh@shaw.ca or to Adam....This was the CMx10 campaign you were GMing.

[JasonC]

j-g - sure if you kill all their tanks on turn 6, the rest is a cake-walk. I wouldn't quite call it 200 reversed, since you get a whole ZIS-3 battery not one PAK 40. The next two step it up a notch, as you get to stop StuGs then Tigers, instead of plain vanilla Panzers.

[JasonC]

Mike - it is a time commitment thing. I haven't answered because I do not know whether I will have the time for it, starting over Christmas. I may, and I hope to. Work was crazy for a while and now isn't, and I do hope that will mean I can start day two. But I can't promise it yet.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Mike - it is a time commitment thing. I haven't answered because I do not know whether I will have the time for it, starting over Christmas. I may, and I hope to. Work was crazy for a while and now isn't, and I do hope that will mean I can start day two. But I can't promise it yet.

No promises necessary, just a maybe will do. Thanks for the reply.

[Christian Knudsen]

HA!

Finally beat 200. I work away from home with no computer, so I spent the last week pining for CMBB, um, and my family... I guess.

What was different from the earlier dismal failures?

I changed the setup to place a full platoon and 2 tanks on the right, and moved the mortars around, but otherwise as default. I put the 122's onto the right woods house.

The big difference was that I put my center tank into the depression where he could be neither seen nor see. When I moved the tanks on the right up to about the house, the gun opened up, but with quite a bit of concealment between it and the target. It got off 5 shots before I was able to get the tank to safety, but for the last three I had mortars on the way. It did hit once, but I lucked out and got a non-damaging hit. Tanks hid until the Pak went away (2 turns), and then it was game on, with the center tank moving up to whack the HMGs, and the two on the right going for the center woods. Enemy surrender on Turn 25.

The only real disappointment was the performance of the 120s. I did not change his setup, from which he cannot see the woods objective, so the turn 10 barrage onto the center woods was unfortunately WAY off target, and much of the ammo went into empty space. I attempted to move the spotter to see the flag, but he was messed up by the HMGs who were not quite dead yet, and for whatever reason really let him have it. He recovered, and about turn 21 put the few remaining rounds just shy of the woodline, but did very little and was really as much a danger to the parked T-34s as to the enemy.

Still, I feel that I have learned a bit more about anti-antitank tactics, and about blasting infantry at close range with tanks. It's too bad they get PFausts and PSchrecks soon...

[John Kettler]

JasonC,

Something decidely odd is happening now with the RusTrain scenarios. I set out to play RusTrain110, but found myself playing RusTrain200. This outcome is consistent, and the files are correctly sequenced in the Scenario folder, too. BTW, everything went wrong in that battle, despite my best efforts, use of cover, etc. Total Axis Victory from an advance up the center. Never did get actual eyes on the foe, had one squad routed, and ended up with almost everyone else shot up to one degree or another and pinned. Platoon HQ's behavior rated swift NKVD retribution; probably actually demoralized the men further. High water mark was a pinned team near the fence.

Regards,

John Kettler

[SteveP]

John Kettler:

Pending Jason getting an opportunity to help, I can give you some quick answers. The 110-112 scenarios have a quirk in their file names (not sure how this works but apparently scenarios can have two names: a title and a file name). I think Jason must have started with a scheme in which these were going to be the 200 series, but then changed his mind. Not really a problem for play, but can be a problem if you make any changes to them in the Scenario Editor. If, for example, you edit 110 and then try to save it, the Editor will save it as RusTrain200. That's why I mention this in a couple of posts in this thread.

If you've modified 110 to fix the orientation problem, or you try playing it Hot Seat solitaire, you would indeed be finding it extremely difficult to play. If you are playing it solitaire and no changes, then you just need to work on your approach technique a little more. You should be able to get up to about 150-180m away from the trench without being spotted (because the MG is facing the other way and, if you're careful, doesn't hear you coming either). What you do at that point is where it gets tricky, especially in the first 90-120 seconds. You are out in the open in a very lethal zone. It can be done, however. One technique is to area fire the trench, which will cause the MG to dive for cover and probably stay there (this won't work by the way if the MG is looking your direction). The other approach involves different variations on the techniques that Jason has described. At least from my experience, It is particularly important to know how close you need to get one of your squads in order to get a spot on the MG when he opens up on you. You also have to have some idea of what you'll do if that first squad gets thoroughly plastered before getting the spot.

[Christian Knudsen]

Major victory in 201, with an auto-ceasefire in turn 26, just when I was really bringing my last 122 and the 120 into play.

Major revisions to the setup - moved the 120 spotter over to the left, put a full platoon on the right, and moved the first center platoon more behind the rough, with the independant platoon set to advance into the dead ground.

I found the extra infantry really made a difference, as well as the extra arty - 122s went into the right and center woods on turn one, with the remainder saved for the endgame. Guns were for the most part ineffective, one being killed by the german 81mm with one shot, and the other being panicked on a regular basis.

I found it much easier this time to get into the rough objective. I used hide a lot more, and pushed forward in bounds. Worked great.

Anyways - JasonC, I think that 201 would be more logical to put before 200. It builds more on the 110 series. I found myself in 200 getting more concerned about overcoming the AT defense than about pushing infantry up to the rough. Basically I was counting on the tanks to win the battle for me. Since one of the lessons of the 200's seems to be that any sort of HE will do, and in 201 the German ATG is much less of an annoyance, I think it would be more logical that the infantry-heavy lesson should be first. After all, artillery cannot take ground, while the fact that tanks can clouded the lesson of 200 for me.

Thanks again

Christian Knudsen

[JasonC]

CK - I think that is probably a reflection of how useful anti-ATG tactics training was for you in particular. Many players will not find 200 nearly as hard, because they will deal with the German gun rapidly. In 201, the German heavy weapons pinning in open ground have to be handled or avoided without tank help.

As for the use you made of the 122s, I think it is a mistake to save any of it so late. Map fire all of it, some early and others later on (using QQQ to add minutes of delay). E.g. the center woods could get a second module 5 minutes after the first, to make a long, 10 minute barrage. Slightly different aim point, one a bit left of center of mass, the other a bit right.

The right side front stuff you can hit with far less - the on-map 76mm e.g. The 120s can wait and fire reactively, walking the aim point ahead of the men.

On the lack of success with the on-map guns, sure a German mortar is the best counter to them. Obviously they start in cover and don't need to move up. If their gun shields are properly oriented and they aren't shot while moving, mere MG fire is unlikely to panic them.

[Christian Knudsen]

Yeah - I figured that since the 120s had a delay of 6 turns, then the 122s couldn't be that much longer. 20+ turns? Whoops. Although having that 122 module start coming in on Turn 24 was a real treat, as it really put the coup de grace on the remainder of the enemy infantry.

With regards to the 120s and reactive fire, are there any tricks to ensure that the barrage comes in in the later parts of the turn, and so only puts down a couple of rounds before adjusting again? I was able to switch the fire around quite well (position of spotter makes a huge difference), but found a couple of times that through bad timing a lot more rounds got dropped on a particular spot than I needed/wanted.

With regards to the gun, I am unsure what was panicking it so reliably - probably the 81mm again, but less lethal from longer range. I never really did look too hard at the replays of what was doing it, as I couldn't see the mortar anyways, the gun wasn't actually taking casualties, and it would rally eventually. The only other possibilities were the HMG's or maybe some LONG distance shots from the sharpshooter.

I think the major lesson of 200 for me in terms of A-ATG tactics was that of avoidance - make his first shot be a poor one, and you can hopefully avoid losing armour. Of course I knew roughly where the gun was, so I was able to do this with some confidence. Perhaps the secret is to have an escape route for each tank...

I begin to realise why Pakfront tactics worked so well, however. To encounter three or four ATGs in a similar space would be very daunting, and would certainly require a pause for arty / reinforcement.

Anyways, I still think that 201, focussing as it does more on 'pure' infantry tactics, should be played first. Of course this shows some of my bias as an infantier - all other arms are merely there to support me, after all...

[SteveP]

[ December 10, 2005, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: SteveP ]

[SteveP]

Originally posted by John_d:

Why do my overwatch units never respond fast enough? I have this problem all the time in CMBB, although not in CMBO. Units will happily sit and watch the rest of their platoon get shot to pieces, despite being able to see the shooter. Why?

I wondered about this myself. Turns out there have been some threads on this subject and I did some of my own testing to see what I could figure out.

The answer seems to be that the TacAI will inhibit units from firing even if they have a spot, if there's a question about whether the fire will be effective and also (I think) where the enemy being fired upon is dangerous to your unit (in a situation where firing would give away your unit's location). In this evaluation, the TacAI doesn't consider the combined effect of all your units firing, it just makes a decision unit by unit.

For that reason, it is important to give each unit in your overwatch a covered arc over where you expect the enemy to be. The arc doesn't guarantee that the unit will fire, but it does tip the balance in that direction, if the situation is a close call for the TacAI. As near as I can tell, that's the only thing you can do to help get your overwatch up and shooting as soon as they spot a target.

[Christian Knudsen]

Total Victory for 202, with an enemy surrender on Turn 16.

I put the T-70 on the left as gun bait, one platoon in the center depression, and the other on the far right. Arty stayed reactive.

T-70 served purpose, so I set the middle T-34s to shoot and scoot out of the depression - but I forgot to give them covered arcs on the gun, and it went to a flag contact just as my tanks were cresting. This lost me a T-34, but I had staggered and spread the crest orders just enough that the last tank up managed to get the gun while it was busy putting extra speed holes in the first one. I didn't like losing two tanks, but I'll take it in this situation.

Rest of the battle went swimmingly - This tends to be how I play as the Russians anyways, with me (and this is a pretty broad generalization) using lots of tanks to ferret out ATGs, and then shoot up enemy infantry. What this series is teaching me so far is:

a. Infantry has a role besides defense of tanks in close terrain - in fact, infantry, given time and/or heavy weapons, can get the job done on their own - they are very resilient if handled right.

b. Proper use of supporting weapons, in particular arty; I used to be terrible at using arty, but I think I am getting better at it.

There's some other stuff, too, but those are the main things thus far.

Anyways, I am off to my no-family, no-CMBB job for another week - I am eager to get at the 300's when I get back next week, though!

On the other hand, maybe I should start my Christmas shopping...