Russian Training Scenarios

[Guest BigAlMoho]

I would like copy as well if you please...

BigAlMoho@tds.net

Thank you very much...

[ekrommen]

junk2drive, this might be the site, which is very informative (thank you Mr. Windor):

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/c.dames/scout.htm

JasonC, I'm interested in going through your training courses, ekrommen@cox.net. Thanks!

[BirdGunner]

I might as well jump in on the band wagon also, Please send a set my way,

Thanks:

bwdoiron@rogers.com

[MOS was 71331]

I'd like a copy as well. Thanks.

harry.pool@boeing.com

[JasonC]

These are now hosted at -

http://www.blowtorchscenarios.com/

Thanks to George McEwan for putting them up - he has screenshots of (most of) the maps as well as the accompany text. Follow the Russian training scenarios link to the actual page, which includes download links.

Those who already requested them here have been sent the whole zip manually, by email.

[kholt1]

JasonC

Would really like to have the training session. I get beat badly when playing the Russians. Germans too for that matter

Nevermind Jason. As soon as I posted I saw they were hosted. All downloaded and school is open. Thanks

[Other Means]

Originally posted by JasonC:

These are now hosted at -

http://www.blowtorchscenarios.com/

Thanks to George McEwan for putting them up - he has screenshots of (most of) the maps as well as the accompany text. Follow the Russian training scenarios link to the actual page, which includes download links.

Those who already requested them here have been sent the whole zip manually, by email.

If you need a backup, drop me a mail.

I've also just recieved a mail from Erik Springelkamp addressed to you which I'll forward on. I've replied to him and told him I'm not you.

At least...I think I'm not.

[The Hound]

Thanks Jason, I'm looking forward to giving these a try. I've often thought there had to be better tactics than I was using.

Thanks again.

[JasonC]

OK, lots have them now. Before you get through absolutely all of them, how about letting us know how they go? It is possible to lose 100, though luck alone can win it for you. If you don't know the right idea, it is easy to lose 102 - if you know the idea, you can't lose. Same goes for 110. How about some reports on the 100 through 112 series, first?

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by JasonC:

To get that started, those trying them tell me and be honest - how many won the simple 102 "kill the StuG" scenario on your first try?

Thanks Jason. Got them. Since you were interested in the 102 battle, I tried it. Now I am not claiming to be a new player and I got this pack for those that I run across. But I tried your 102. I killed the StuG on turn 2 with the first shot from the HQ T-34, which I had just put on hunt, while the infantry was searching for the StuG. I was lucky in finding the StuG immediately and a single round kill of the StuG was almost pure luck. So, I tried it again. Same tactic. This time the StuG killed the T-34 and I had to split my remaining T-34's to kill him on turn 7.

I played the scenario with extreme Fog of War and a +3 CEB.

Good little training scenario. This looks like it will be a valuable tool for new gamers. Do we have your permission to pass this along to those in need as we find them? You should put your name to the tuturial someplace. I would like to add your name to it before passing it along, if you agree that we can pass it along.

Once again good stuff.

[JasonC]

On passing along, sure, go right ahead.

The point of 102 coming after 101 is to show how tactics change with the threat. A platoon together is best against the weaker Panzers, but StuGs you have to make turn. You can kill the StuG with good scouting and distraction tactics. Or you can do it the right way. Play the exact same moves in 101, and it is unlikely to prosper.

[JasonC]

Incidentally, you should certainly have fog of war on but you should not give the computer any experience bonuses. It will falsify your tactics, e.g. changing the firepower needed to suppress infantry and the like. Play with fog but normal experience, no handicaps.

[ekrommen]

lesson 100

First time, I rolled straight then met the enemy which backed away. I tried to be sneaky and raced around the left in the depression. I regained contact and we traded shots at each others side - he won.

Next try, I rolled straight, made contact, traded shots, and kept contact with the hunt command as the enemy went into reverse. We traded many shots, but I stayed on top of the hill. I felt like I pushed him back like a sumo wrestler. I'm thinking thats the right thing - I gained the objective with minimal risk - used my front armor. I got a track hit (otherwise he might have reversed off the map) then eventually a KO.

Was my 2nd try the right way, or was it a lucky win?

[junk2drive]

ekrommen, thanks for the link, that is the page I was looking for.

100 I went to level one and used move commands along the rise in terrain. As the house windows came into view I used hunt. When the PZ appeared I allowed my tank to remain stationary and it continued to exchange fire with the reversing PZ until the PZ bit the dust.

[DzrtFox]

Jason,

Thanks for creating something like this and for sharing it.

I've played through the first scenario and am looking forward to diving into more. One thing I think that could vastly improve this would be to add text briefings to each scenario. I know this would take a little time, and I know there's already a readme that discusses the basics of each scenario, but it would be a little more convenient to have them displayed as text in the missions themselves. I would be willing to help out adding the text to the individual missions if you'd like to do it...

Awesome job man!!

[JasonC]

The main thing is just to stay unbuttoned and use "hunt". If you are clever, you can use areas you can see that don't have tank in them to locate him by process of elimination, and train your turret exactly at the spot using a covered arc.

Over the ridge on the right is a good choice but anywhere will do.

You can't get the hull up duel the T-34 is best at on this map, with the crown of the hill between you - first spots will essentially always be hull down. Your upper hull is invulnerable, but your turret is not, at the ranges you will see. (Lower hull can be penetrated if it is exposed at short range).

If you fast move, you don't spot as well. If you don't have the turret trained, you lose time after picking him up. Your turret is marginally faster but his vision is better and so is his rate of fire and first shot accuracy (marginally at these ranges, it is true). It is not worth trying to run to a hull up location, it will just give him first shot.

You have a big edge in behind armor effect - his 50mm AP doesn't kill as reliably on a partial pen as your 76mm APHE. But if he spots you first he can easily put 3 rounds through your turret front before you fire.

So, do not button - visibility is too important. Unbutton after an engagement if he reverses out of LOS. Notice where he isn't and train your turret to minimize pick-up time. Hunt. These will get you first shot more often than not. If you hit him, as is likely, you are strongly favored overall.

First moral - just shooting is often more important than fancy footwork. Rapid spots mean shooting sooner.

[JasonC]

Desert Fox - I agree, but part of the idea of this thread is to figure what should be in those briefings, and whether the scenarios need to be tweaked first. In the end, yes I want full briefings, on line AARs, help commentary, etc. But we walk first.

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by JasonC:

On passing along, sure, go right ahead.

The point of 102 coming after 101 is to show how tactics change with the threat. A platoon together is best against the weaker Panzers, but StuGs you have to make turn. You can kill the StuG with good scouting and distraction tactics. Or you can do it the right way. Play the exact same moves in 101, and it is unlikely to prosper.

Okay tried 101 so I could compare the two. I used the same exact tactics of moving forward in platoon formation on hunt. Killed the first PzIII on turn 5 and the second PzIII on turn 10.

I had the T-34's in hull down positions where only one PzIII at a time could engage them.

I always use at least a +2 CEB on vs AI scenarios. I can understand your not wanting new players to use it though. I like the way the computer handles the units better with at least a +2 CEB and all of my scenarios vs the AI are playtested with that setting. Since these scenarios are for less experienced gamers I used a +3 CEB to even the odds a bit.

Still, excellent scenarios, from what I've seen, for beginning armor experts to cut their teeth on.

[ekrommen]

lesson 101 - moved behind crest of hill, dropped off grunts which "advanced" forward to craters. The grunts braved enemy contact and spotted two tanks. Ordered all tanks straight forward with hunt which met the enemy tanks one by one, forcing each to be abandoned. I guess three AP rounds at a time is too much, even if the armor holds out.

Lesson distilling..

Grunt intel = where to point

terrain = allows/disallows contact

To shoot "first and often" I need the back of the hill crest to drop off grunts and control when the contact happens. In a sense the back of the crest is the real objective it seems.

[Runyan99]

These are kind of fun to play through.

102 was a suprising loss!

Knowing I was opposed by superior armor, I spread out my tanks wide, and then advanced on line under the hunt command. Each T-34 was able to engage the Stug, but all three of my tanks were knocked out, to my suprise. I didn't know the Stug was really that much superior to a T-34 M43.

Even so, my initial inclination is to try the scenario again with the exact same tactics, and hope for better luck, rather than to try something odd to get a side shot. I guess if I fail again, I really need to think about something else.

[juan_gigante]

In the 100 level scenarios, there's a little dip in elevation just to the right of the scattered trees that rapidly became my best friend. 100 took me two tries, 101 and 102 got on the first try, both with no losses. I actually thought that 102 against just the Stug was pretty easy. Just hit it from multiple directions from hull-down, and you're good. When I saw "against superior armor", I was planning to see a Tiger.

The 110 series, with the green infantry, is kicking my ass, though. I usually don't play with greens, and when I first loaded up the map my jaw dropped to see how little cover there was for me to advance through. I got 112 on my first try, but am still hacking at 110 and 111. One thing that the 110 series really instilled in me is keeping your guys in command and that cover really isn't necessary, if you have overwhelming overwatch. The first time I played, my whole platoon was advancing 200 meters at once from cover to cover. When I finally beat 112, I had one squad out of two platoons moving very shot distances with everyone else pouring in cover fire.

Jason, these are great. Even just in the first few, I think I've really learned a lot. How long did it take you to make all these?

[JasonC]

In 101, staying together is the single most important thing. Hunt is the right command. The infantry scout to locate the enemy. They can also tell you exact LOS - just how far to go to see to a certain location. With the tanks moving to a location the half squad was just at, in order to see or not be seen in the same way it was. If you engage the Panzers one at a time with all 3, you should win easily, typically without loss. On the other hand, if you split up and have every tank do its own thing, without any scouting to help, the Panzers are as likely to pick you up first as the reverse. If you fast move too aggressively, they will both see one tank and often drill it before the others are engaged. It is the hardest of the first 3 to actually lose, though.

In 102, the StuG is more dangerous than the posters here are letting on. It can kill all 3 T-34s in less than a minute, if you stay in a platoon (which is a mistake against the StuG but correct against the Panzers - an important point to know and to distinguish). Even using multiple spread shooters, which is part of the correct tactic, you risk losing one duel too soon, and the StuG having turned back by the time the next gets LOS.

The first possible solution to that is better scouting by the infantry, and using shoot-and-scoot from only the T-34 the StuG is "least" facing, at any given time. That can get repeated single shots at minimal risk - the risk being truly minimal only if (1) you know the StuG's facing before engaging (2) you know the edges of LOS to reverse back out of them - which again depends on infantry scouting help.

A second variant of that, which is a bit of a stupid AI trick (less effective vs. humans) is to distract the StuG with infantry headed toward the objective, then whack it with a T-34 (or two) from another direction.

A lesson meant to be conveyed in all of the above is that the front arc of the StuG is wider than it may seem, with its turns included there is not all that much time for each engagement if you engage separately, and at these ranges if it sees you for 30 seconds with anything like the right facing you lose a tank.

But there is a best solution that goes beyond even the tactics above, which are adequate certainly. It is an important T-34 platoon tactic, particularly against lone thick fronted enemies - the coordinated fast-move flanking rush. Truly aggressive fast move, not only into LOS but through it, to widen out the total angle between the T-34s. And to keep the StuG rotating to track, instead of shooting.

Here is a turn 3 screen of doing it the aggressive way -

Moral - Make StuGs Turn

[JasonC]

"I usually don't play with greens, and when I first loaded up the map my jaw dropped to see how little cover there was for me to advance through."

Yep, if you can advance poorly led green Russian infantry over open ground, you have the basic underpinings for infantry maneuver. If you can't, everything infantry will be too hard.

Poorly led - in 110 the HQ has no bonuses, while in 111 and 112 you have much better command (a +2 command HQ, and 2 platoon leaders with +1 morale and combat, one with +2 stealth as well).

There is more cover in 110 than you might think, though. You have to start thinking about cover in the right way for an attacker. Hint - houses have "shadows".

Cover matters because infantry gets into "cover panic" when shot hard enough in the open. Greens are especially susceptible. Also, greens lose the ability to use "advance" if out of command distance - and panic in an HQ can remove command. This can put you in sideways sneaks in the wrong direction.

Command delays are also a serious issue. In this era, greens with no bonuses take 30 seconds to respond when in command and good order. Out of command gets to 45 seconds and shaken units take longer. Pinned units can refuse to move for minutes.

It is entirely possible for one enemy MG to put an entire green platoon in a combination of actual red morale states, sideways sneaks going nowhere, and endless command delay. The platoon freezes up, nobody puts their heads up to fire or spot. Not all that many men are actually hit, but the advance can fail. Pinned and cover panic sneakers don't spot well or fire.

And you only get sound contacts when an MG-42 shoots at you from cover. With greens lots of them heads down, sometimes you won't spot the exact shooter location until the range is under 100 yards.

A unit with even shellhole cover can be much more resilient, simply because it is less likely to experience "cover panic". If others are moving and not too close, drawing away fire, a unit that has reached a shellhole will rally. Once above pinned, it will spot, and fire when ordered.

Another lesson is the resilience of infantry despite the frustration factor. A platoon every squad of which has panicked at one time or another, can still win this fight. It is perfectly normal for a few men to be hit, for some units to break. You have to be willing to "win ugly" to get the most from infantry.

The key, you will find, is getting enough infantry to full ID range. Once you find him, if you can recover any shooters to speak of you can get his head to go down. As soon as that happens, your men rally, in open or not. And once they are all rallied and willing to fire, the MG is not going to go heads-up again. Oh, you may want to send one squad to grenade range eventually, sure. But fundamentally, fire will get him if only you can find where to direct it.

That is an important lesson to have under your belt before 111. Which should be much easier. This time you have ranged heavy weapons. The HMGs have enough ammo to area fire at suspected positions. The 82mm hits hard enough - when its 1 in 3 rounds actually lands close, anyway - to pin in a minute of fire (typically - sometimes it takes 2).

And you have commanders. Units under the company HQ move out in 15 seconds. He commands a very wide area. The others are significantly tougher (from +1 morale) on "advance". You have two platoons, thus 8 squads, and the flexibility (if you use the company HQ correctly) to swing squads between HQs.

The point of 111 right after 110 is to show you just how much being in a company does for green Russian infantry, compared to being in a platoon. It is not just two platoons side by side. It is a fundamentally more robust animal.

112 on the other hand, faces a significant number of potential German shooters for the first time. It is easy to win if you know what to do - I lost only 12 men first time through it, and won completely in 15 minutes.

If the right weapon does each part of the job you have enough to make it a cakewalk. But if you use the wrong weapon for each job, or misuse any item, you can easily have trouble. Too many men in the open under fire and not firing will get you.

What all of them are meant to show is the night and day difference in how hard things can seem when you know and do the right thing, and when you don't.

[DzrtFox]

OK Jason I didn't realize that this was still a "work in progress". Just wanted to mention the text briefings since nobody had said anything...

I definitely think this is a great training tool. Have you done anything like this in either CMBO or CMAK?

[ekrommen]

lesson 102 - I can attest to the fact that the Stug is deadly. I lost all 3 of my tanks, even though tehy were spread out from the left deppression and across the hill. I was having trouble coordinating their attacks - the Stug picked em off one by one. My first thought was to try again closer together like in 101..just pelt him with 3xAP and see if he abandons. Looks like I just need to be more careful with the spread out approach.