How Germans really took out KV-1s

[Abteilung]

Originally posted by Trommelfeuer:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />...you just do what Hermann Bix' gunner Krause did after failing to pierce the side of a KV-I (in a Panzer III)... Shoot it through the barrel. Now thats mad skills...

True ? Myth ? BS ?

Regards, Sven </font>

[Snow Leopard]

I remembered read a book long time ago that in early stage STUG and PZ III will have to careful aim for KV's other weakness point is driver's visor hole. I think it was in Wittmenn's story in book. If you must see proof by give name of author and title then I have to go to storage unit to look for that book in boxes. I wish I can bark order to gunner by tell him "aim that visor hole" in CMBB! Also I read stories that PZ III have to run around fast and blank shot at rear of KV-1 but I tried and always not work well in CMBB. I wonder if they can create program mod that if KV-1 roll around unbottom with commander stand up as closer hidden enemy fast shot him out and climb up tank then drop grenade into open hatch. I had read that Wittmenn able pitch grenade into open hatch of emeny tank in close distance. Maybe create program MOD that only "elite" and "crack" can do that against open hatched tank to destroy with better result against odd. Also maybe add new program that may score hit on driver's visor of KV tanks (weak point)

[Snow Leopard]

Let's ask Finnish soldiers how they did it.

[ January 23, 2004, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: Snow Leopard ]

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by Snow Leopard:

Let's ask Finnish soldier how they did it.

"Sotilas will not bother us anymore"

[Sardaukar]

KV-1s (few that were encountered 1941-42) were very difficult to deal with for Finns, since main AT weapons were 37mm ATGs and 20 mm ATRs. One KV-1 was destroyed with commmand-detonated 20 kg explosive charge, another when lucky hit from 37 mm ATG removed the hull MGs armour cover, and 2 rounds from 37 mm were able to enter the tank through that hole. 2 KV-1s were captured, KV-1 m1940 and KV-1E, both used by Finns through the war.

Cheers,

M.S.

[jtcm]

This particular story of a single KV cutting off supply lines to bridgehead, etc, is also in S. Zaloga's Osprey book on the KV. And i also read it in the US "Small Unit studies" of Eastern Front tactics, which another poster referred to

[Andreas]

Originally posted by jtcm:

This particular story of a single KV cutting off supply lines to bridgehead, etc, is also in S. Zaloga's Osprey book on the KV. And i also read it in the US "Small Unit studies" of Eastern Front tactics, which another poster referred to

Yes, and the point is that unless Zaloga has it from another source than 'Small Unit Actions', that is the only source.

[MikeyD]

I'm reminded of an anecdote told from the other side. A KV-1 crew in action for the first time in Finland. I can't recall where i read it (probably on the web). Two impressions from the story as I recall it: The KV was practically invulnerable early in the war; and it was extremely unnerving For the Russian crews to have non-penetrating AP shells constantly hammering at them (of course penetrating shells would be even more unnerving). Crew reactions to the stress ranged widely. The anecdote had the loader at the height of the barrage scrambling for an empty shell casing to urinate in!

[stikkypixie]

The anecdote had the loader at the height of the barrage scrambling for an empty shell casing to urinate in!

I thought that was standard practice for all tank crews?

[PzKpfw 1]

The story of the KV originated from an report from 6th Pz. Div's, Pz.Regt 11 dated June 25 1941. Ie:

In the meantime a Russian heavy tank had blocked the communications route to Kampfgruppe Raus, so that contact with Kampfgruppe Raus was broken for the entire afternoon and during the night. An 8.8 cm Flak battery was sent by the commander to fight this tank.

It was just as unsuccessful as a 10.5 cm battery whose fire was directed by a forward observer. In addition an attempt was made by a Pionier assault troop useing balled explosives failed. It was impossible to get close to the tank because of heavy machine gun fire.

*See: Jentz Thomas L. PanzerTruppen vol 1. pp.198.

Regards, John Waters

[FWB]

Slightly relevant. KV-2 pics:

[ParaBellum]

The 2nd pic shows how the Germans handled the threat during the early war.

A single soldier pushed them down a steep slope.

Quite simple.

[FWB]

Originally posted by ParaBellum:

The 2nd pic shows how the Germans handled the threat during the early war.

A single soldier pushed them down a steep slope.

Quite simple.

Heh. Those genetically enhanced uber-soldats were quite something.

[gunnergoz]

Originally posted by ParaBellum:

The 2nd pic shows how the Germans handled the threat during the early war.

A single soldier pushed them down a steep slope.

Quite simple.

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG...

Any idiot can tell from the position of the tow cables that he was PULLING the KV-2 when he lost his footing and drew it with him down the slope!

[RSColonel_131st]

Wow...imagine what kind of force would be needed to throw a KV-2 on it's back like that...Or what kind of "bumb" it makes sliding off the slope and falling on it's back itself.

[FWB]

Originally posted by RSColonel_131st:

Wow...imagine what kind of force would be needed to throw a KV-2 on it's back like that...Or what kind of "bumb" it makes sliding off the slope and falling on it's back itself.

Its called a "Russian Tank Driver".

[Andreas]

Originally posted by PzKpfw 1:

The story of the KV originated from an report from 6th Pz. Div's, Pz.Regt 11 dated June 25 1941. Ie:

In the meantime a Russian heavy tank had blocked the communications route to Kampfgruppe Raus, so that contact with Kampfgruppe Raus was broken for the entire afternoon and during the night. An 8.8 cm Flak battery was sent by the commander to fight this tank.

It was just as unsuccessful as a 10.5 cm battery whose fire was directed by a forward observer. In addition an attempt was made by a Pionier assault troop useing balled explosives failed. It was impossible to get close to the tank because of heavy machine gun fire.

*See: Jentz Thomas L. PanzerTruppen vol 1. pp.198.

Regards, John Waters

Great stuff, and thanks for digging. KTB entry of PR11, so that settles it for me.

[SBS]

A point about calling up Air Support - In WW2 most aircraft where not capable of all weather flight so where usually not present on the battlefield at such times.

Some examples being the Polish Gliders not being able to arrive at arnhem.

Also the Battle of the Bulge where the German Army used fog to obscure their advance and prevent air attack. Once the weather cleared the allies fighter bombers arrived and caused significant losses on the German forces.

[BaD JoKe]

Originally posted by Bone_Vulture:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Snow Leopard:

Let's ask Finnish soldier how they did it.

"Sotilas will not bother us anymore" </font>

[BaD JoKe]

Originally posted by Sardaukar:

KV-1s (few that were encountered 1941-42) were very difficult to deal with for Finns, since main AT weapons were 37mm ATGs and 20 mm ATRs. One KV-1 was destroyed with commmand-detonated 20 kg explosive charge, another when lucky hit from 37 mm ATG removed the hull MGs armour cover, and 2 rounds from 37 mm were able to enter the tank through that hole. 2 KV-1s were captured, KV-1 m1940 and KV-1E, both used by Finns through the war.

Cheers,

M.S.

Hmm.. I wred the same thing in a book somewhere. As I remember it, first shot penetrated from drivers slit and killed the driver and set a small fire inside the crew compartment destroying some cabels etc. The driver getting killed would explain the fact that the tank didn't reverse in haste. The next two shots killed more of the remaining crew and the fire took care of the rest..

But best weapon against heavy soviet tanks was the rough, wooded terrain and inexperienced crews I think. How else would it be possible that the tank crew didnt see the ATG until it was so close that it could shoot 3 times to the exactly same weak spot? Those guys were either blind, sleeping or conscripts (possibly all cases apply). I think that the range for 3 such a lucky hits mustv been 10 or 20 meters..

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by BaD JoKe:

[NewbieDragon]

Don't read history, make your own fiction instead.

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by NewbieDragon:

Don't read history, make your own fiction instead.

Yeah, revisionism rules.

[knalla]

Originally posted by tar:

(...)

Four 50mm ATG's set up and fired at once from four different angles, all ineffectively. The KV-1 sat motionless, then picked off the guns one by one. Later, rather than waste a shell, it simply ran over and squished a PzKw 35t. Tank mines were placed under the KV-1, which had no supporting infantry or any support at all (they think he may have been lost and ran into the Kampfgruppe by accident), but the mines had little effect. An 88mm was brought up through some woods to the the KV-1's rear. The tank commander spotted the 88mm and watched it being moved up but kept his turret pointed away, letting the Germans think he didn't know they were there, so when the Germans finally frantically started to set up their 88mm to fire, the turret turned around and blew the 88mm away and into a ditch. This standoff lasted a couple days until another 88mm was brought up to within 500 yards, a distraction was made to the tank's front by some other little German tanks running around, and the 88mm fired nine shells at the KV-1, all which hit but only two of which penetrated. Even then, the turret was still operable, someone inside was still alive, so some Germans ran up and pushed a couple grenades into the 88mm shell hole, killing all inside. (...)

So presumibly before the crew died they said to the germans throwing grenades at them "We knew from the start about that 88, but we waited, ingenous innit?"

Or did they give that information over the radio?

[Ruthless]

IIRC, the original report ended with the cryptic statement:

"...and there, hanging in the door, was a stainless steel hook."