How Germans really took out KV-1s

[tar]

There have been a number of discussions about how the Germans really dealt with KV-1 tanks in 1941. Here is an historic account.

From a post by Jeff Hale on consimworld:

I've just started reading a book titled Panzer Operations written shortly after the war by Erhard Raus, a German officer who eventually rose to Army Group command in 1945, which has just been translated and released this month. The book is entirely of a tactical nature, for instance, as a Lt. Colonel in June '41 commanding a Kampfgruppe in the 6th Panzer Division, Raus spends nine pages, pp. 26-34, describing an action with a single Russian KV-1 blocking their supply lines back to headquarters.

Four 50mm ATG's set up and fired at once from four different angles, all ineffectively. The KV-1 sat motionless, then picked off the guns one by one. Later, rather than waste a shell, it simply ran over and squished a PzKw 35t. Tank mines were placed under the KV-1, which had no supporting infantry or any support at all (they think he may have been lost and ran into the Kampfgruppe by accident), but the mines had little effect. An 88mm was brought up through some woods to the the KV-1's rear. The tank commander spotted the 88mm and watched it being moved up but kept his turret pointed away, letting the Germans think he didn't know they were there, so when the Germans finally frantically started to set up their 88mm to fire, the turret turned around and blew the 88mm away and into a ditch. This standoff lasted a couple days until another 88mm was brought up to within 500 yards, a distraction was made to the tank's front by some other little German tanks running around, and the 88mm fired nine shells at the KV-1, all which hit but only two of which penetrated. Even then, the turret was still operable, someone inside was still alive, so some Germans ran up and pushed a couple grenades into the 88mm shell hole, killing all inside. All Russian occupants were buried with honors.

Steven H. Newton has compiled and translated the book's contents from several different partial sources

6th Panzer was part of the XLI Panzer Corps in Army Group North. The above action occurred in late June'41 in Lithuania.

[Bone_Vulture]

WADR - An acronym for "with all due respect", I'll need that nowadays - that story sounds like complete bollocks.

[Sardaukar]

Book at least is very valid, released in Nov 2003, so I'd not dismiss that as "complete bollocks".

Panzer Operations: The Eastern Front Memoir of General Raus, 1941-1945

by Authors: Erhard Raus , Steven H. Newton

Released: 25 November, 2003

ISBN: 0306812479

Hardcover

Cheers,

M.S.

[manchildstein (ii)]

in cmbb... if i line up about 7 or 8 75mm infantry guns in trees along a road... if a kv shows up on the road... it usually dies within 1 or 2 minutes....

[Sergei]

This is a well-known incident. There's even a mini-operation about it, "Iron Roadblock" or something.

[Sardaukar]

It's a scenario..."Iron Roadblock" and it's damn difficult.

BTW, first timed Finns encountered KV-1(not counting the prototype participating early 1940 battles in Karelia Isthmus) it proved impervious to all AT-weapons, including AT-mines then used. IIRC it was disabled by combat engineers with 20 kg explosive charge.

Cheers,

M.S.

[ January 15, 2004, 02:05 AM: Message edited by: Sardaukar ]

[Sergei]

But but... Hietanen destroyed one with a mine.

20 kg? How did they deliver that, or was it buried into a road?

[Warmaker]

A salute to both sides in the incident. The Germans were damn persistent but the Russians fought it out until the very end.

Edit to add: You know you've got a tough tank if you don't bother shooting another AFV and decide to run it over. There's a good pucker factor for the panzers that were used as Decoy Boy

[Sardaukar]

Originally posted by Sergei:

But but... Hietanen destroyed one with a mine.

20 kg? How did they deliver that, or was it buried into a road?

IIRC, they figured out it'll pass same way it came and buried the charge there...and thus happened. Thankfully Russkies were not noted for extreme unpredictability

Cheers,

M.S.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Sardaukar:

Book at least is very valid, released in Nov 2003, so I'd not dismiss that as "complete bollocks".

Panzer Operations: The Eastern Front Memoir of General Raus, 1941-1945

by Authors: Erhard Raus , Steven H. Newton

Released: 25 November, 2003

ISBN: 0306812479

Hardcover

Cheers,

M.S.

This incident may or may not be true, but there is at least one incident where Raus published an article in a Swiss military journal in 1953 that is, *cough* rather embellishing the facts (see the analysis of this incident in Scheibert 'Bis Stalingrad 48km'). He is not a reliable source. Good story though.

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by Andreas:

This incident may or may not be true, but there is at least one incident where Raus published an article in a Swiss military journal in 1953 that is, *cough* rather embellishing the facts (see the analysis of this incident in Scheibert 'Bis Stalingrad 48km'). He is not a reliable source. Good story though.

Perhaps my armchair colonel comment was a bit brash, but the story sounds just too ludicrous: they have an enstranged enemy tank crushing panzers and taking out a handful of AT guns. Yet the Germans manage to sneak close enough to the tank to set mines under it, but somehow fail the utilize this amazing window of opportunity.

The tank is besieged for "a couple of days", which means that the tank crew would be by then suffering from serious sleep deprivation. And finally when the tank is shelled with an '88, it seems to possess both incredible armor tensile strength and crew tenacity.

This could be an isolated example of a particularly fanatic tank crew, but I'm not sure.

[tar]

I suppose the main point I hoped to illustrate was based on someone else on the board's observation that in real life, one would often have to pull back and wait until appropriate resources could be procured.

In other words, when facing an "unbeatable" opponent, one would often give up the immediate battle and try to either go around, or wait until appropriate support was available.

[Cookie Monster]

Originally posted by Bone_Vulture:

WADR - An acronym for "with all due respect", I'll need that nowadays - that story sounds like complete bollocks.

Why? :confused:

[MikeyD]

I heard a story very much like that but it involved the monster KV-2 (and yes, Iron Roadblock would be based on that). I've heard similar stories about the KV-1 as well, such stories aren't exactly uncommon. Early war the only way for the German to stop the KV was to run screaming in the opposite direction and hope the beast had a transmission failure while chasing after them!

[stikkypixie]

But it's hard to imagine a KV crushing a german light! It would have never been able to catch it, me thinks!

[Terah]

Originally posted by stikkypixie:

But it's hard to imagine a KV crushing a german light! It would have never been able to catch it, me thinks!

A mobility kill first surely.

[Patrocles]

Originally posted by Bone_Vulture:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas:

This incident may or may not be true, but there is at least one incident where Raus published an article in a Swiss military journal in 1953 that is, *cough* rather embellishing the facts (see the analysis of this incident in Scheibert 'Bis Stalingrad 48km'). He is not a reliable source. Good story though.

Perhaps my armchair colonel comment was a bit brash, but the story sounds just too ludicrous: they have an enstranged enemy tank crushing panzers and taking out a handful of AT guns. Yet the Germans manage to sneak close enough to the tank to set mines under it, but somehow fail the utilize this amazing window of opportunity.

The tank is besieged for "a couple of days", which means that the tank crew would be by then suffering from serious sleep deprivation. And finally when the tank is shelled with an '88, it seems to possess both incredible armor tensile strength and crew tenacity.

This could be an isolated example of a particularly fanatic tank crew, but I'm not sure. </font>

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by Cookie Monster:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bone_Vulture:

WADR - An acronym for "with all due respect", I'll need that nowadays - that story sounds like complete bollocks.

Why? :confused: </font>

[Paul Lakowski]

In 1941 a squadron of T-35 was ambushed by a troop of KV tanks. THe T-35 were directed to mass fire on the KV tanks aiming for the turret rings and succeded in disabling two of these tanks before chasing the other away.

[Tero]

IIRC the Germans took out either a T-34 or a KV with an empty champagne bottle at least on one occasion.

[Tero]

Originally posted by Sergei:

But but... Hietanen destroyed one with a mine.

Is it known for a fact it was a KV ? In the book (IIRC) it was not specified as one. In the old movie it was a PzKw-IV and in the new movie it was a T-55 with fiberclass superstructure.

20 kg? How did they deliver that, or was it buried into a road?

IIRC it was command detonated when the beast drove over it.

[Sergei]

As an ATR team is trying to take it out, the pioneer officer shouts to warn them, "It's no use, they are Klims!" But they don't hear and get killed. This is just before the pioneer with the mine gets killed.

I think the tank Koskela destroys with explosives in '44 just as he gets killed was a KV as well.

[stikkypixie]

Originally posted by Terah:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by stikkypixie:

But it's hard to imagine a KV crushing a german light! It would have never been able to catch it, me thinks!

A mobility kill first surely. </font>

[K_Tiger]

@patrocles

Perhaps they called a cease-fire each the night? Everyone got some zzzzzzz's and they were ready to carry on the siege the next morning

Can you imagine how it feels to sit at night in a tank in enemy territory?

I would run...faster than anyone before me...

[Sergei]

You all are so full of ****! This source undisputably proves it all:

Polar to that was so called "flame ramming", berserk ramming with the burning tank. The burning tank crushed, smashed and hit everything and anything until, usually, the explosion of ammo does the crew and their tank part. In no way it were kamikaze raids of Soviet tankers. The flame ramming occurred only if the tank was already hit, usually in the last minutes before ammo would blow due to the fire. As a rule, the crew had negligible chances to survive, even, if the remaining crewmembers would have managed to leave the burning tank. Actually, in the defense of Stalingrad Cpt.Putin in his KV destroyed the column. KV was hit and burning. Singing "International" the crew remained in the burning tank, surrounded by enemy.

The peak of 1943 is attributed not only to the big tank battles in this year but also to the fact that Soviet tanks completely lost technical superiority and had to fight at close distances with ramming being, possibly the most effective way to destroy a heavy German tank.

G.K. Zhukov on his way to the HQ stopped at the place of battle under Prokhorovka and for a few minutes was silently looking at the field covered with black ruins of burnt, blown and deformed tanks. Everywhere in sight were pieces of armor, tracks... Near the general was Panther with T-70 stuck in its side. In some twenty meter - Tiger and T-34 in the last dance, both blown.

Sometimes the results of ramming were unexpected. On June 26,1941 KV of 8 Tank Corps under command of Lt. Zhegan rammed and destroyed Pz.IV. After the collision the KV engine died, the crew was unconscious. Another Pz.IV decided that it would be great idea to capture KV. The idea was all that great as it turned out. The noise produced by Germans stomping on KV returned the Russian back to the consciousness but they still could start the engine. After Pz.IV started hauling, the guys in the KV started the engine on the move. The KV was heavier and with more powerful engine. The German crew bailed out and the German tank was delivered to the position of the Russian troops. (But what the damned good towing cable the Germans had!)

If it's in the Internet, then it must be true!