AdamPraha Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 In the Battle of the Seelow Heights. It's really too bad that tanks can't drive on the road. I had to ride with everyone personally manually to get to the last positions. If I let them drive alone I lose 3. They immediately drive like drunks off the road. It's embarrassing that the AI can't even... recognize the road. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halmbarte Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 Yet the AI will unfailingly deviate from the route you've set to take a quicker way straight through a kill zone. Copy/paste orders like Tacops had would solve many of these problems. H 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warts 'n' all Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 37 minutes ago, Halmbarte said: unfailingly You might want to prove that sweeping statement. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vacillator Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 6 hours ago, AdamPraha said: In the Battle of the Seelow Heights. It's really too bad that tanks can't drive on the road. I had to ride with everyone personally manually to get to the last positions. If I let them drive alone I lose 3. They immediately drive like drunks off the road. It's embarrassing that the AI can't even... recognize the road. Got any pics, showing paths if possible? Why does the AI take them off road? Obstacles like wrecks in the way, or something else? I assume by lose you mean they drive off into mud and get stuck, or perhaps into LOS/LOF of the enemy? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warts 'n' all Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 46 minutes ago, Vacillator said: Got any pics, showing paths if possible? Why does the AI take them off road? Obstacles like wrecks in the way, or something else? I assume by lose you mean they drive off into mud and get stuck, or perhaps into LOS/LOF of the enemy? All valid questions. If vehicles "unfailingly" do stupid things i.e. constantly, would any of us get past a demo, without deciding this game isn't for us? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltungswaffe Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 Gotta love absolutes. The only true general statement is that there are no true general statements. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamPraha Posted March 13 Author Share Posted March 13 (edited) The road is empty. It's just not programmed into the game at all. They can't stay glued to the road. And if, perhaps, they find an obstacle. They stupidly continue through the surrounding area all the time until they're all stuck together in the mud. Edited March 13 by AdamPraha 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thewood1 Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 Trying be generous and interpret a weird rant... I assume he's complaining about micro-managing tanks on roads because BFC still thinks their base doesn't want a simple follow or group march command. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warts 'n' all Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 Micro-management is part and parcel of the game. Just playing the demo for Red Thunder tells you that. It is a bit difficult to understand why what happens in the Seelow Heights battle would come as a surprise. It's a struggle moving a large force of tanks across a flood plain with few roads. But, that is what the Red Army had to do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vacillator Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 1 hour ago, AdamPraha said: The road is empty. It's just not programmed into the game at all. They can't stay glued to the road. My experience of empty roads is that if your movement orders allow time between vehicles such that they don't bunch up, and are also short enough to follow the road turn by turn, then you can get it work. If one vehicle gets held up, it might go off road or cause others to go off road. Micro-management - yes. Part of the game - yes. Has BFC tried to introduce 'convoy orders' before - yes. Did they work flawlessly - no. Is it being looked at again - yes. Did I mention I quite like micro-management ? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vacillator Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 I didn't say, but assumed you did individual vehicle orders, not unit orders? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PEB14 Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 I understand @AdamPraha ordered movement from point A on the road to point B on another part of the road usi, with some road turns in between, using only one movement order. Definitively doesnt work in CM... But that's only my guess... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamPraha Posted March 14 Author Share Posted March 14 (edited) On 3/13/2024 at 11:29 PM, Vacillator said: My experience of empty roads is that if your movement orders allow time between vehicles such that they don't bunch up, and are also short enough to follow the road turn by turn, then you can get it work. If one vehicle gets held up, it might go off road or cause others to go off road. Micro-management - yes. Part of the game - yes. Has BFC tried to introduce 'convoy orders' before - yes. Did they work flawlessly - no. Is it being looked at again - yes. Did I mention I quite like micro-management ? Has BFC tried to introduce 'convoy orders' before ?? Pardon what is " 'convoy orders' ? What commands should I sequence to keep the whole column of 10 tanks at the same spacing and moving together ? On the same road? Edited March 14 by AdamPraha 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vacillator Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 (edited) 25 minutes ago, AdamPraha said: Has BFC tried to introduce 'convoy orders' before ?? Pardon what is " 'convoy orders' ? What commands should I sequence to keep the whole column of 10 tanks at the same spacing and moving together ? On the same road? By convoy orders I understand it to mean you set a path for the first vehicle and then issue a 'follow me' command to vehicles behind. They follow the same route, but keep their distance to avoid bunching up and getting in a jam. I've read that BFC trialed this some time ago (before my time) but I gather it was not a total success and was withdrawn. To do it now you have to issue individual, detailed paths with waypoints following the road (so not just A to B...) to each vehicle in turn, and if required also put increasing pauses on the vehicles in the queue so that they don't run into the back of someone in front. Does this always work? Definitely not, but it does if everything aligns. It can be a joy to watch, or it can be 'oh no, not again!'. In a current game I have 10 M5 Stuarts moving as two groups. I've got their movement right most of the time, but not every time. 25 minutes ago, AdamPraha said: What commands should I sequence to keep the whole column of 10 tanks at the same spacing and moving together ? On the same road? What I suggest above does not guarantee the same spacing, it as an attempt to avoid traffic jams which result in vehicles going 'off-piste'. If there is no bunching up and you've issued sufficient waypoints along the road, they should all stay on the road (unless there are obstacles, incoming fire, mines etc.). Edited March 14 by Vacillator 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 Roads tend to allow two vehicles side by side. In addition to giving a 5 sec pause for the following vehicle, try putting one on the RHS of the road and the 2nd on the LHS, and stagger any additional vehicles that are following. Of course the issue is that additional pauses are not every 5 seconds but increase exponentially to 45 seconds. So, in addition to increased PAUSES, the other technique I use is to have following vehicles drive at a slower speed at least until the first waypoint. So, if the first Vehicle moves FAST, later vehicles could move QUICK, then HUNT etc. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurian52 Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 (edited) On 3/14/2024 at 4:24 PM, Vacillator said: I've read that BFC trialed this some time ago (before my time) but I gather it was not a total success and was withdrawn. I was just about to comment the same thing. (the rest edited out) Edited March 19 by Centurian52 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 (edited) The main problem with road travel is; there are no roads as we experience them in the game. What there are. in the game. are a series of tiles that look like a small patch of road and can be assembled in to a series that looks just like a road. So, there isn't anything for the computer to travel along that is contiguous and identifiable. That means creating code that allows units to travel along a road is a lot harder and more prone to issues. Solutions that worked around that didn't really create the ability to travel along a road. They did other things that may or may not have been useful or matched the expectations of the name. Edited March 19 by A Canadian Cat - was IanL removed reference to internal conversations 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurian52 Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 2 minutes ago, A Canadian Cat - was IanL said: No need to air internal conversations externally On reflection you are absolutely right. My inner voice was telling me that I was probably saying a bit too much when I was originally writing my comment, and I really should have listened to it. I have edited my comment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Keogh Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 A follow-the-leader/convoy-like command was announced as a possible feature inclusion for the 4.0 upgrade. However, somewhere between that upgrade's announcement and its release that featured got shelved. Apparently, BF couldn't get it to work within their code. A shame because plotting vehicle road movements has got to be one of the worst parts of the game. All the waypoint setting and using the pause key to both keep vehicles on the road and to avoid traffic jams. And It's really annoying when playing scenarios/campaigns that feature waves of reinforcements on a large map. (When playing such scenarios, I often save and quit upon receiving a company plus of armored/motorized reinforcements because I usually have to feel pretty energized to spend all the time plotting their road movements to "the front." So, I take a break from the game then until I feel more in the mood to do so.) Since, unfortunately, they've already tried but failed to fix this issue, it appears we're stuck with it until maybe CMx3, if that ever happens. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thewood1 Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 (edited) I have always liked how Steel Beasts does it for vehicles. Select the platoon/company leader. Select the destination with an option for direct path, use road, or use cover. Default is direct. Choose the formation...column for a road follow option. Default is line abreast. You can actually set default to column as the scenario default if you want. Set spacing as close, medium, far...default is medium. With close, road movement faster than slow can sometimes create jams. Set speed. Default is medium. You can optionally set SOPs if they spot enemy units, are direct fired upon, encounter artillery, etc. You can also set how the units deploy at the end of the path, as well as copy and paste the route to other units. You have to put a little thought into it, but the order system is fairly easy to use. But without SOPs and formations, CM would struggle with a similar approach. I should note that there is a special task force convoy function mentioned at 4:50 that I have not used. Just habit. The video is from a version 2-3 years ago. There have been a few significant changes since then. I would play a lot more CM if some of these basic functions were available. Edited March 19 by Thewood1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thewood1 Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 I should also add that there are standard SOPs that can be assigned as you build the path that do all the setting of formation, speed, spacing etc. For example, if you choose a path to default to road movement, you can set the SOP as "March". This automatically sets slow, column, medium spacing. It also sets some of the reactions to incoming fire. All of these features are why you can play very large scenarios with battalions across 400 sq km maps. You build out detailed plans at the start for flanks and reserves so the player can focus mostly on a smaller set of units. You can still monitor and adjust those other units as needed, but lets you focus more on a smaller number of critical units. It also creates a cool FOW opportunity. You can lose comms with the flank units and know they will still try to follow the plan. I'm just putting this all out there to show that it can be done, has been done, and hopefully will one day come to CM. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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