T-90

[Larsen]

Finally i found some info about T-90-AM.

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Т-90АМ 

It lists both guns as available for T-90AM and it claims that T-90M is the next step on evolution of T-90AM.

It is unclear how many T-90AM were manufactured.

From the way it looks Russian army will have 1-2 Armatas per a battalion as a command vehicle with some T-15 for support, 5-8 T-90M and the rest will be a mix of T-90A and T-72B3M. With them replacing 3-4 per year with T-14 and T-90M.

 

 

 

[Haiduk]

3 hours ago, Larsen said:

I don't see where it says that there was only one sample.

If you load the article in translator you can read it tells about a TANK not TANKS. Also it uses Russian word "obraziets" for T-90M  - means "specimen, sample", so this not serial tank, just experimental vehicle for test. 

 

[Larsen]

I am a native Russian speaker. The article was talking about a test sample but it never said that there was only one.

[Haiduk]

1 hour ago, Larsen said:

It is unclear how many T-90AM were manufactured.

In this article pointed about three contarcts. First two in 2017-19 - 10 new tanks +50 tanks upgraded from T-90A, and the third - full upgrade of all T-90A park to T-90M. But because of many technological, financial and other problems, looks like first contrat of 10 vehicles was completed only in April 2020. And no information how much were produced since 2021. Baut anyway no more than by second contract.

Russians temporary rejected from T-14 Armata, because too expensive cost and technological problems. Maybe because sanctions too.    

[Haiduk]

6 minutes ago, Larsen said:

I am a native Russian speaker. The article was talking about a test sample but it never said that there was only one.

If you native Russian speaker, I can say if Russia had 10 tanks and would use them all in maneuvers, than natural bragging of Russians, would prompt bloggers and official sources to write in all articles about 10 tanks, but no - you can search by requests "T-90M Запад-2017" and all articles will tell about "танк", not "танки" or "10 танков"  

[Larsen]

It is unclear. Usually Russian military provides as little details as possible. I am surprised that they even told the journalist that there were (was) T-90M on trials in 2017. The example of this is the question of the gun that T-90M carries. There are already serial T-90M in the army and yet no exact information about the gun it has. The Russian wiki page lists both guns with reference to different sources as mounted on T-90AM to which it claims T-90M is a next step iteration.

T-14 is not rejected. There is an order for 100 tanks that should be delivered in 2022. It's just it won't be the core tank in the Russian army. My guess is that each battalion will have 1 or 2 of those, 5-8 T-90M and the rest will be T-90A and T-72BM3. And they will be replacing/upgrading the T-90A and T-72BM3 to T-14 and T-90M at a rate of 3-4 tanks in a battalion per year. That's my guess.

[Haiduk]

45 minutes ago, Larsen said:

T-14 is not rejected. There is an order for 100 tanks that should be delivered in 2022

Rejected in 2018: http://by24.org/2018/07/31/no_money_for_armata_tank/

Instead Armata the programs of T-72B3M and T-90M were offered

Edited April 7, 2022 by Haiduk

[Larsen]

That's old news. They ordered 100 tanks to be delivered in 2022. They decided against ordering 2000+as they originally planned but they did not kill the tank.

[Haiduk]

29 minutes ago, Larsen said:

That's old news. They ordered 100 tanks to be delivered in 2022. They decided against ordering 2000+as they originally planned but they did not kill the tank.

The order for 100 tanks was in 2016: https://newizv.ru/article/general/19-02-2021/vsem-horosh-no-slishkom-dorog-kakaya-sudba-zhdet-tank-armata

Since two years, when a lot of problems of experimental party of T-14 were discoverd, project was stopped for better times.  

The article for 2020 - UVZ just says about "finalizing the project" and "for now T-14 is not adopted for service": https://rostec.ru/news/t-14-armata-absolyutnoe-prevoskhodstvo/

In February of 2021 UVZ promised again first serial T-14 in 2022, but I doubt they can do it:  https://www.rbc.ru/technology_and_media/21/02/2021/60322d719a7947247e90fe9b

Edited April 7, 2022 by Haiduk

[Larsen]

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Т-14 

Under the production tab there is the whole history. As if Dec 24 2021 they claim to  starting the serial production and 20 T-14 were delivered end of last year.

But then, since that is Russia there  is no way to confirm that 

 

[Vergeltungswaffe]

 

Not going to get into this debate, but after this debacle is over for Russia and what they'll have to spend on rebuilding their armed forces, I think the T-14 will continue to be vaporware for some time to come.

[Larsen]

What rebuilding? They have about 2800 tank in active service (half of them are T-72 variants) and another 10000 in reserve. If you look at what they use and what they lose it is outdated old models and old ammunition from 70- tirs and 80-ties. That is what the US did in Iraq in 91. They pretty much used the bombs that they had in storage from the Vietnam era.

Loosing 300 T-71B3M will not even make a dent in their armor.

[Erwin]

If the Russians have also concluded that the day of the "conventional tank" is over, they may conclude it's best to "use em in combat or lose em thru obsolescence".  The Russian people seem to hold life cheaper than the west does - so are more willing to die in obsolete equipment - an attritional strategy.  If they can kill one enemy for every 3 or whatever Russians, they eventually win.

[womble]

40 minutes ago, Erwin said:

If the Russians have also concluded that the day of the "conventional tank" is over, they may conclude it's best to "use em in combat or lose em thru obsolescence". 

I think if they've concluded that the tank's day is done, they're probably mistaken. Its days may be numbered but there's going to need to be some systems development done to actually permanently obsolete 'em

The tanks day in Russian hands might be done, but that's something of a different matter. It may even be that the AK's day is done, as far as Russian military power in the next decade or two is concerned.

[Larsen]

Let's not turn this into a discussion what Russia will or will not do and how in the future regarding its military. 

Let's focus on the very specific subject - CMBS. 

[akd]

14 hours ago, Larsen said:

Loosing 300 T-71B3M will not even make a dent in their armor.

I mean, other than losing probably a third of their modernized tank force already, yeah, no big deal.

[Grey_Fox]

22 hours ago, akd said:

I mean, other than losing probably a third of their modernized tank force already, yeah, no big deal.

That sort of loss rate is kinda reasonable for 6 weeks into a peer conflict.

Also we don't actually know how badly the Ukrainians have been affected - they've been pretty good at opsec and their citizenry haven't really been broadcasting lost Ukrianian vehicles on the internet.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Grey_Fox

[Larsen]

Please, let's take the political discussion out of this thread.

This thread is about representation of T-90 in CMBS. Please, focus on that.

[akd]

“Russia has lost a third or more of it’s modernized tank force” is not a political statement.  If it makes you uncomfortable about your own politics, I’m sorry.

[akd]

On 4/9/2022 at 10:53 AM, Grey_Fox said:

That sort of loss rate is kinda reasonable for 6 weeks into a peer conflict.

Only reasonable if it can be replaced. It can’t in the near term.  Where are all the needed Thales imagers going to come from?

[Vacillator]

Going back a bit to the T14, there has been media talk of 'floods of Terminator tanks' heading for Ukraine.  Backing this up were pictures of three (yes 3) possible T14s on rail transport heading who knows where.  Does anyone have any better intel on this, which looks a bit like total BS?  And by BS I don't mean Black Sea .

Edited April 12, 2022 by Vacillator

[akd]

3 hours ago, Vacillator said:

Going back a bit to the T14, there has been media talk of 'floods of Terminator tanks' heading for Ukraine.  Backing this up were pictures of three (yes 3) possible T14s on rail transport heading who knows where.  Does anyone have any better intel on this, which looks a bit like total BS?  And by BS I don't mean Black Sea .

“Terminators” are BMP-Ts, not T-14s (“Armata”). There are only a handful of these in service.

Edited April 13, 2022 by akd

[Vacillator]

11 hours ago, akd said:

“Terminators” are BMP-Ts, not T-14s (“Armata”). There are only a handful of these in service.

Ah, thanks for the clarification, I thought the article I'd read showed T14s, will have to look at it again.

[Aragorn2002]

On 4/6/2022 at 8:08 PM, Larsen said:

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/russian-army-just-received-its-first-new-t-90m-proryv-tanks-144577

Here they state that the gun os the same as on on T-14 and erroneously call it 2A46-4. T-14 is armed with 125mm 2A82-M. In any case this is a different and much more powerful gun than the original 2A82. 

Here 

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/t-90m-proryv-3.htm

They also claim that this is the same gun as on T-14 without specs.

Here 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/eurasiantimes.com/t-90-tank-gets-faster-deadlier-more-survivable-how-does-india/

They claim that the gun is 2A46M-5. It is not the same as 2A46. 

Here 

https://www.deagel.com/Armored Vehicles/T-90/a000369

They say it us 2A82-1M

Here too they say it us 2A82-1M

https://www.google.com/amp/s/weaponsandwarfare.com/2020/08/28/t-90m/amp/

In any case the gun is different from the one on T-90A. And the fire control, thermal sites, ERA are all upgraded.

Also it does not look like any APS was ever installed on T-90M

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Where is the 2nd Guards Motor Rifle "Tamanskaya" Division at the moment? 

[Vergeltungswaffe]

I doubt Russia will be getting access to those components any time in the near future, so rebuilding their armed forces will truly be a long nightmare.