T-90

[Larsen]

In the game we have T-90, T-90A, T-90AM.

On teh internet I can find information about T-90 and T-90A. There is nothing really about T-90AM. There is T-90SM which is not in the game though. There is a version that is called T-90M which I believe was not yet in service in 2017 (and it is unclear if it is in service now) and supposedly include new ERA, better gun, better sensors and is supposedly could be outfitted with Afganite. 

What is T-90AM? Is that a real thing or is it supposed to be the T-90M? If it is supposed to be T-90M then it should have at least a different main gun at the least.

[Kevin2k]

7 minutes ago, Larsen said:

In the game we have T-90, T-90A, T-90AM.

On teh internet I can find information about T-90 and T-90A. There is nothing really about T-90AM. There is T-90SM which is not in the game though. There is a version that is called T-90M which I believe was not yet in service in 2017 (and it is unclear if it is in service now) and supposedly include new ERA, better gun, better sensors and is supposedly could be outfitted with Afganite. 

What is T-90AM? Is that a real thing or is it supposed to be the T-90M? If it is supposed to be T-90M then it should have at least a different main gun at the least.

Quote

T-90AM

A modernized version of the T-90A, the T-90AM could potentially be the most advanced tank in Russian service. Numerous subsystems have been upgraded in the tank. The new "Kalina" fire control system has automated tracking for moving  targets, and stabilized integrated daylight/thermal optics. The T-90AM includes information system upgrades in the form of inertial navigation systems, GLONASS satellite navigation system, and the Constellation-2M satellite communications system, an analogue to the United States FBCB2 program. These battle management upgrades greatly increase the situational awareness of the tank crew. The T-90AM is equipped with advanced "Relikt" ERA, the successor to Kontakt-5. Relikt was developed in response to new US kinetic energy penetrators such as the M829A2 which were designed to penetrate Kontakt-5. Relikt is claimed to be twice as effective as Kontakt-5, and effective against tandem warheads and APFSDS rounds. The commander is equipped with a panoramic sight and  remote controlled UDP T05BV-1 weapon station with a 7.62 mm machine gun. A new ammunition stowage arrangement places many of the tank shells in a blast compartment, increasing crew survivability by directing the blast of exploding shells away from the crew compartment. Other subsystem upgrades include slat armor protecting the rear of the tank, a new autoloader, a 1130 hp diesel engine, automatic transmission, and a new 2A46M-5 cannon.
The export equivalent of the T-90AM is the T-90SM.

That is from page 102 of the game manual.

I don't know much about this T-90 series of vehicles myself...

 

[Larsen]

if that is the case then they got the gun wrong. The new gun on T-90M is the same gun they are installing on T-14. It is not 2A46M (L48). The new gun is 2A82-1M (which is eithe rL55 or L56 and offers better penetration).

It would be great if this is fixed and the price of T-90am is adjusted to account for a gun comparable to that one of Abrams tank.

[Larsen]

I understand that CMBS was developed way before 2017 and all these now existing tanks were under the development back then. It would be great to bring the specs to what they actually are. For T-90M (I believe about 10 of them were in service in 2017) the gun should be upgraded, the ERA also should be upgraded as well as the thermal sites, the APS should be removed as none of them were and are outfitted with any APS as of right now.

[Vanir Ausf B]

18 minutes ago, Larsen said:

if that is the case then they got the gun wrong. The new gun on T-90M is the same gun they are installing on T-14. It is not 2A46M (L48). The new gun is 2A82-1M (which is eithe rL55 or L56 and offers better penetration).

Do you have a source for that?

[Larsen]

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/russian-army-just-received-its-first-new-t-90m-proryv-tanks-144577

Here they state that the gun os the same as on on T-14 and erroneously call it 2A46-4. T-14 is armed with 125mm 2A82-M. In any case this is a different and much more powerful gun than the original 2A82. 

Here 

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/t-90m-proryv-3.htm

They also claim that this is the same gun as on T-14 without specs.

Here 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/eurasiantimes.com/t-90-tank-gets-faster-deadlier-more-survivable-how-does-india/

They claim that the gun is 2A46M-5. It is not the same as 2A46. 

Here 

https://www.deagel.com/Armored Vehicles/T-90/a000369

They say it us 2A82-1M

Here too they say it us 2A82-1M

https://www.google.com/amp/s/weaponsandwarfare.com/2020/08/28/t-90m/amp/

In any case the gun is different from the one on T-90A. And the fire control, thermal sites, ERA are all upgraded.

Also it does not look like any APS was ever installed on T-90M

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Larsen]

Here is a link to a Russian site 

https://dfnc.ru/katalog-vooruzhenij/tanki/t-90m-proryv/

Scroll down to specs to see the gun version.

They actually mention here that T-90AM was a test version in 2010-2012 that never got into a production.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Larsen

[Larsen]

Here they explain the history of T-90 and also claim that T-90M gas a 2A82 gun. They also mention T-90AM as a improved version of T-90A without any details.

https://warbook-club.turbopages.org/turbo/warbook.club/s/voennaya-tehnika/tanki/t-90/

 

 

 

[Vanir Ausf B]

Others give different answers, e.g. https://www.army-technology.com/projects/t-90ms-main-battle-tank/

The main armament of the tank is a 125mm 2A46M-5

I just remembered there was a debate on this forum between two Russians who disagreed on what cannon the T-90m sported.

 

Installing 2A82 for the T-90 would require a larger ammunition carousel. That's a significant redesign of the hull.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Vanir Ausf B

[Larsen]

The link you provided is for T-90MS. That is a modified T-90S and it uses the same gun as T-90A. This version is for export and i believe is in production for over a decade.

I am asking about T-90M which just got into production 1.5 years ago and of which there were about 10 testing units in 2017.

[Vanir Ausf B]

As the manual states, the T-90AM is based on the T-90MS. Unless BFC changes their mind there will not be anything added from post-2017.

[Larsen]

T-90AM never existed. It was a test model that never got mass produced.

[Vanir Ausf B]

The same was true of the T-90m in 2017. The first units were delivered to the Russian Army in 2020 or 2021.

[Larsen]

I saw a report somewhere that the first 10 unites were delivered in 2017. I can again look for the article if BCF really would take a note.

But then as I understand Trophy APS was never really installed on Bradleys and there were not installed on Abrams in 2017. I also saw somewhere a discussion if LWS was standard on the M1A2 and Bradleys. But those are also in the game.

There were about 6 operational Oplots in the Ukrainian army in 2017 and they did not have an APS. Those are also in the game.

[Vanir Ausf B]

9 minutes ago, Larsen said:

I saw a report somewhere that the first 10 unites were delivered in 2017. I can again look for the article if BCF really would take a note.

Yes. See if you can find that.

There are lots of things in the game that were "speculative" that did not pan out in reality. Those units can't be removed, unfortunately. But my impression is that they are nevertheless not going to extend the time frame beyond 2017. So Ukraine will probably not get Javelins because they didn't until 2018.

[Larsen]

T-90M Proryv-3 Model 2017 MBT main battle tank data fact sheet | Russia Russian army tank heavy armoured vehicles U | Russia Russian army military equipment vehicles UK (armyrecognition.com)

here they stated the tank was tested during the military exercise Zapad-2017. 

And here they claimed that T-90M was used and tested during Zapad-2017.

Zapad 2017 Lessons Learned | Warsaw Institute

 

 

• During the maneuvers, the Russians had at their disposal all sorts of the missile and artillery assets such as Tunguska anti-aircraft system, Pantry S-1 system, Tochka-U missile system, Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) and BM-21 Grad, self-propelled howitzers (Msta and Akatsiya) as well as self-propelled artillery (Pion). As for the aviation, it was represented by the Su-24 bombers and various types of attack helicopters, namely Mi-24, Mi-28 and Ka-52. The maneuvers constituted an opportunity to present and test new types of weaponry. Moreover, the Russian took advantage of testing T-72B3 tanks on such a massive scale. In February this year, the first batch of twenty upgraded tanks was introduced within the Western Military District. The production of the most recent version of T-72 tanks started last year. Also such types of tanks as T-90M and T80BWM as well as BMPT armoured fighting vehicles appeared in the Russian army. As for the Belarusians, they could boast of the V1 light armoured vehicle, Caiman armoured vehicle and an upgraded T-72BM3 tank.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Ok, thanks. Maybe it will get in.

But don't hold your breath for the 2A82-1M. There are a lot of conflicting sources on that.

https://www.armyrecognition.com/russia_russian_army_tank_heavy_armoured_vehicles_u/t-90m_model_2017_mbt_main_battle_tank_technical_data_sheet.html

"The main armament of the T-90M Model 2017 Proryv-3 consists of one 125 mm 2A46M-4 smoothbore gun"

http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t90m.htm

"The T-90M is armed with a new 2A46M-4 gun"

[Larsen]

I know. Some sources call it 2A46M-4, some 2A46M-5, I saw also 2A46-5M - in any case that is a more powerful gun than what T-90A has (at least everyone agrees on that). That could be because there are some new shells that offer increased penetration. 

I think since M1A2SEP is in the game and it can be outfitted with APS Trophy (and Bradleys too! Although they are sitll testing it for Bradleys as of now) there should be T-90M as well. 

[Vanir Ausf B]

3 hours ago, Larsen said:

That could be because there are some new shells that offer increased penetration.

It's called 3BM59 Svinets-1, and all Russian tanks in CMBS use it, which is overly optimistic since it wouldn't fit in the T-72 or T-90A autoloader.

[Larsen]

That might one if them. The others are 

The first is the Vacuum-1 armor-piercing discarding sabot round with a depleted-uranium core. The designers say that in flight the projectile reaches a velocity of 1,980 mps and can rip through a meter of tank armor.

The second is the Telnik high-explosive fragmentation warhead, which can be detonated remotely by the tank crew.

And, thirdly, there’s the Sprinter guided missile, the trajectory of which can be adjusted in flight.

And i think if it uses a new gun there should be a different autoloader as the new gun uses longer projectiles.

[Haiduk]

15 hours ago, Larsen said:

T-90M Proryv-3 Model 2017 MBT main battle tank data fact sheet | Russia Russian army tank heavy armoured vehicles U | Russia Russian army military equipment vehicles UK (armyrecognition.com)

here they stated the tank was tested during the military exercise Zapad-2017. 

And here they claimed that T-90M was used and tested during Zapad-2017.

Zapad 2017 Lessons Learned | Warsaw Institute

Western analytics often overestimate Russian capabilities. Indeed first T-90M went to service in April 2020. Here is article of manufacturer Uralvagonzavod about first T-90M for 4th Guard "Tamanskaya" Tank Division: http://www.uralvagonzavod.ru/presscenter/smi/883

Probably first tanks are just upgraded existing T-90A, so I suppose T-90AM are recently produced T-90A hulls with M upgrading and T-90M are new-manufactured tanks. But for simplification they all now will be named T-90M.  

Edited April 7, 2022 by Haiduk

[Larsen]

Not really. From my understanding the program will include upgrading the existing T-90A and T-90 to T-90M standard and manufacturing new T-90M. From what i could find these two processes will go simultaneously. First T-90M were tested by the army in September 2017 during the Russia-Belorussia war games.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Larsen

[Haiduk]

1 hour ago, Larsen said:

Not really. From my understanding the program will include upgrading the existing T-90A and T-90 to T-90M standard and manufacturing new T-90M. From what i could find these two processes will go simultaneously. First T-90M were tested by the army in September 2017 during the Russia-Belorussia war games.

During these maneuvers only one T-90M and one BMPT experimental specimens were demonstrated. Just like "See all, what we have now!". But there is not tank unit, armed with T-90M. Here the Russian source: https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2849936.html

First serial T-90M in troops - April 2020 and not earlier. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Haiduk

[Larsen]

I don't see where it says that there was only one sample. Obviously what they had in September 2017 was not a production unit. The Russian army started receiving them only in late 2020, i believe. I am not even sure if now there are any if them in Ukraine. From the pictures it looks like the Russians are fielding upgraded T-72 and some T-90As, really old stuff.

But that is beyond the point. For example APS Trophy was not even tested on Abrams until 2020 from what i read. And yet it is in the game.

[Lethaface]

 

16 hours ago, Larsen said:

That might one if them. The others are 

The first is the Vacuum-1 armor-piercing discarding sabot round with a depleted-uranium core. The designers say that in flight the projectile reaches a velocity of 1,980 mps and can rip through a meter of tank armor.

The second is the Telnik high-explosive fragmentation warhead, which can be detonated remotely by the tank crew.

And, thirdly, there’s the Sprinter guided missile, the trajectory of which can be adjusted in flight.

And i think if it uses a new gun there should be a different autoloader as the new gun uses longer projectiles.

AFAIK / IIRC they (RU MoD) had/has issues actually producing the Armata gun in numbers, so in reality it isn't installed on the (limited numbers) of actually produced T-90M. And indeed to be able to use the new Vacuum-1 rounds a new autoloader would need to be installed which doesn't fit the turret.

All in all the 2012 prediction of T-90AM in game isn't far off from what the T-90M became in the end. Although there are only very limited numbers and afaik they haven't been seen in Ukraine 2022.