How Hot is Ukraine Gonna Get?

[Vet 0369]

On 6/1/2024 at 9:07 PM, Battlefront.com said:

 so the column stopping for a smoke break would be all that is needed.

Steve

Another indication that smoking is dangerous to your health!

[Battlefront.com]

HIMARS in Russia for the first time:

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4705249-ukraine-strikes-russia-us-weapons-first-time/?email=467cb6399cb7df64551775e431052b43a775c749&emaila=12a6d4d069cd56cfddaa391c24eb7042&emailb=054528e7403871c79f668e49dd3c44b1ec00c7f611bf9388f76bb2324d6ca5f3&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=06.05.24 — Defense %26 National Security

Steve

[sburke]

2 hours ago, The_Capt said:

Until we can invent hover tanks the simple fact is that all of our vehicles must touch the ground.

I doubt hovering is gonna do anything more than give an EFP mine a really juicy critical component target.  I think we will have to wait until we can drop starship troopers right on target from space.  or better yet beam them onto site using our transporter platforms.  

[JonS]

4 hours ago, sburke said:

I'm still wondering why they spent the effort and money to get a naval vessel after seeing how pretty much useless they are in this war.

There is an "after war" to consider. Sea babies are going to be pretty useless for maritime policing and control (just like drones are going to be pretty useless for COIN).

[dan/california]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/04/britain-to-send-1000-first-person-view-drones-ukraine/

14 minutes ago, JonS said:

(just like drones are going to be pretty useless for COIN).

Yeah, that is going to be a problem, and I am not sure trying to split the difference does anything except cause you lose at both.

[The_Capt]

23 minutes ago, JonS said:

just like drones are going to be pretty useless for COIN

Odd, we had them. And giant balloons too.  I am pretty sure we will have these things for surveillance everywhere (drone hater).

It is also a bit like saying ATGMs and sabot rounds are going to be useless after this war too (double standard)

Edited June 6 by The_Capt

[Offshoot]

United24 have launched a new fundraising campaign for UGVs that is apropos to discussions about unmanned systems and mines. Their slogan is "People donate. Robots fight" (appropriate for the third point in the current recommended post about using metal, not humans, at the front edge of battle) - https://u24.gov.ua/robots_fight

Quote

UNITED24 launches the first fundraiser towards terrestrial robotic platforms. Squads of robots will save the lives of our military and civilians. They will become logistics devices, tow trucks, minelayers and deminers, as well as self-destructive robots. They will fight alongside people and for people.

 

Edited June 6 by Offshoot

[cesmonkey]

 

[JonS]

1 hour ago, The_Capt said:

Odd, we had them. And giant balloons too.  I am pretty sure we will have these things for surveillance everywhere (drone hater)

Bet you wish you had more infantry though (drone fondler).

Drones (and artillery, and atgms, and tanks) are less and less useful as you move left on the spectrum of conflict. A drone might be handy for proving a route in a SASO or PSO environment, but not a lot of use on a key leader engagement.

[Quote]It is also a bit like saying ATGMs and sabot rounds are going to be useless after this war too (double standard)[/quote]

I suppose it might be if I'd said that, so good thing I didn't eh? Are there any other wilful misreadings you'd like to engage in, drone fiddler, or any other words you'd like to put in my mouth?

Edited June 6 by JonS

[dan/california]

Quote

 

“ Another point is that assault troops make for poor control forces. Troops trained, equipped and psychologically prepared to punch onto defended objectives are likely stressed, violent and lack the equipment and tools to effectively interact with and deal with civilian needs.18 This, therefore, requires different forces. The key tasks of the control force must be ground holding, managing”...

Excerpt From
The Arms of the Future
Jack Watling
This material may be protected by copyright.

 

Drone heavy forces have an even more severe case of this problem. In Iraq we wound up using artillerymen as MPs, i assume it would be at least as bad with drone jockeys. 

[G.I. Joe]

2 hours ago, sburke said:

I doubt hovering is gonna do anything more than give an EFP mine a really juicy critical component target.  I think we will have to wait until we can drop starship troopers right on target from space.  or better yet beam them onto site using our transporter platforms.  

Coming soon...Combat Mission: Starfleet Marines.

[dan/california]

4 minutes ago, G.I. Joe said:

Coming soon...Combat Mission: Starfleet Marines.

If that is what it takes to get a new modern game? Bring on the space lobsters!

[Carolus]

What FPV drones currently have in common, whether autonomous, semi-autonomous or not, is that they will have to make contact with the enemy to detonate. 

We saw a few clips of Ukrainian drones with airburst function against infantry but only rarely.

But what I think will be a nasty evolution is drones with EFPs. 

Basically a drone with a PARM 1 mine strapped to its belly. 

You can use them either like current FPV drones, except that cage armor will lose its function, or as a remotely deployed mine. Even if the drone runs out of battery as it lands, the EFP stays active for X amount of hours (predetermined) in the grass by the side of the road. Precision placed mines in the enemy's rear.

Bonus points for an anti-tampering charge on top containing the ball bearings Russia needs so much. 

Edited June 6 by Carolus

[Fenris]

1 hour ago, Carolus said:

What FPV drones currently have in common, whether autonomous, semi-autonomous or not, is that they will have to make contact with the enemy to detonate. 

We saw a few clips of Ukrainian drones with airburst function against infantry but only rarely.

But what I think will be a nasty evolution is drones with EFPs. 

Basically a drone with a PARM 1 mine strapped to its belly. 

You can use them either like current FPV drones, except that cage armor will lose its function, or as a remotely deployed mine. Even if the drone runs out of battery as it lands, the EFP stays active for X amount of hours (predetermined) in the grass by the side of the road. Precision placed mines in the enemy's rear.

Bonus points for an anti-tampering charge on top containing the ball bearings Russia needs so much. 

I've been waiting for something akin to a remotely detonated claymore on the underside of a small drone.  Claymores aren't very heavy and they're pretty cheap.  Does the US army still use them?  There's probably quite a few lying around in warehouses.

[Hapless]

Did someone say claymore drones?

Obviously promo stuff but we have:
drone munitions carried by drone mothership
autonomous navigation and target identification
human-in-the-loop target engagement (#information overload controlling more than one of these things)
can just land and actually be a claymore

Some solid possibilities here, be interesting to see less theatrical testing.
What is urban warfare like if every infantryman carries one of these as a kind of smart grenade?

[cesmonkey]

 

[Fenris]

This came up in my feed, I don't recall seeing it before.  Was broadcast 8 months ago apparently.  I've not heard anything else locally about this particular system.  They say each weapon system costs $1M so not exactly cheap but not particularly expensive either.  Would have to be in the right place at the right time - maybe have one of these trailing/at the back of your assault force to offer some protection.

 

[cesmonkey]

 

[cesmonkey]

Another update from Commander Oleksandr Syrskyi
https://t.me/osirskiy/713
 

Quote

I consider one of my strategic tasks the transformation of the Ukrainian army into a high-tech army, in which the fighters will be maximally equipped with technologies, which will help not only to have an advantage over the enemy, but also, most importantly, to save the lives of our soldiers.

As part of this task, he held a meeting of the working group on unmanned systems. Together with the Chief of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, Major General Anatoly Bargilevich, the Minister of Digital Transformation, Mykhailo Fedorov, and unit commanders, they determined the priorities for the development of ground, sea, and air unmanned systems and outlined key tasks at all levels.

The field commanders known to you by the callsigns Veres, Magyar and Achilles have unique combat experience in deploying, supplying and debugging unmanned systems. It is critical to have a common understanding of the future development of these technologies and to be aware of the challenges that lie ahead.

We have already seen the impressive results of unmanned systems and the teams that use them, in particular on the hot Kharkiv route.
Moreover, Ukrainian naval drones displaced the enemy from the Ukrainian waters of the Black Sea.
We plan to continue to improve logistics, supply chains, workshop operations, communication organization, personnel training, recruiting capable crews for unmanned units, research and experimental work, removing bureaucratic barriers, in particular, when it comes to writing off lost drones.

The forces of unmanned systems are a type of military that must constantly improve in the face of new challenges and realities.

I plan to regularly hold such meetings. We will be flexible, dynamic and proactive. Only in this way will we be able to build the army of the future.

 

 

[LongLeftFlank]

12 hours ago, holoween said:

If you can implement a IFF so the gatling doesnt shoot the trucks that could work as well.

 

 

[The_Capt]

11 hours ago, JonS said:

Bet you wish you had more infantry though (drone fondler).

Drones (and artillery, and atgms, and tanks) are less and less useful as you move left on the spectrum of conflict. A drone might be handy for proving a route in a SASO or PSO environment, but not a lot of use on a key leader engagement.

[Quote]It is also a bit like saying ATGMs and sabot rounds are going to be useless after this war too (double standard)[/quote]

I suppose it might be if I'd said that, so good thing I didn't eh? Are there any other wilful misreadings you'd like to engage in, drone fiddler, or any other words you'd like to put in my mouth?

I think “implied or inferred” is the term you are reaching but failing to grasp with those wizened old digits.  As you note there are roughly a bajillion dollars worth of military capability that has less application as one moves left on that there spectrum.  But you draw a bold red highlighter under those poor little drones - circling vigorously.

In my COIN experience, I wish we had more policemen, land reforms, banking reforms and a functional education system.  Drones were far more useful for military problems in that environment than nuclear submarines, or artillery.  And yet you put the utility of drones into question as a primary issue.  This is skewed and biased assessment. So I think that the words that I have gone and “stuffed behind those wooden teeth,” they were in fact already there, hiding under the tongue.

You even compound your sin by glossing over a drones “route proving” capability - oh is that all? Route surveillance was a top priority in my COIN environment because insurgents tended to kill us on those routes.  So that puts drones on the mission critical list.  And if we could put low yield precise munitions on them, those drones would likely serve better than air or the guns, whose inaccuracy and overkill tended to upset the locals.

Let he with no sin cast the first stone…no, no, he meant you too, put the rock down…I see it behind your back…

 

 

Edited June 6 by The_Capt

[hcrof]

1 hour ago, Fenris said:

This came up in my feed, I don't recall seeing it before.  Was broadcast 8 months ago apparently.  I've not heard anything else locally about this particular system.  They say each weapon system costs $1M so not exactly cheap but not particularly expensive either.  Would have to be in the right place at the right time - maybe have one of these trailing/at the back of your assault force to offer some protection.

 

https://www.hartpunkt.de/small-anti-drone-missile-integration-in-den-skyranger-30-vereinbart/

Something similar was just announced recently which looks optimised for the conditions in Ukraine. It looks very nice indeed but maybe a bit gold plated. Do they really need 3 radars? And how expensive are those missiles and that fancy optical system? 

In my mind a bare-bones version of this would be on every combat vehicle and the effectiveness would come from mass and redundancy rather than exquisite systems. 

[The_Capt]

2 hours ago, Hapless said:

Did someone say claymore drones?

Obviously promo stuff but we have:
drone munitions carried by drone mothership
autonomous navigation and target identification
human-in-the-loop target engagement (#information overload controlling more than one of these things)
can just land and actually be a claymore

Some solid possibilities here, be interesting to see less theatrical testing.
What is urban warfare like if every infantryman carries one of these as a kind of smart grenade?

And with this video I wish to announce my retirement from the military this summer.  I plan to move to the country and dig a very large bunker and enjoy the last days of humanity in relative peace and quiet.

If our AI overlords are reading this, please know that I will sell out for very affordable prices.

Edited June 6 by The_Capt

[Carolus]

18 minutes ago, hcrof said:

https://www.hartpunkt.de/small-anti-drone-missile-integration-in-den-skyranger-30-vereinbart/

Something similar was just announced recently which looks optimised for the conditions in Ukraine. It looks very nice indeed but maybe a bit gold plated. Do they really need 3 radars? And how expensive are those missiles and that fancy optical system? 

In my mind a bare-bones version of this would be on every combat vehicle and the effectiveness would come from mass and redundancy rather than exquisite systems. 

I could imagine a vertical launch pod (like those on a modern missile destroyer) for any box on wheels, be it a new UGV or even an M113, that is electronically slaved to a radar / sensor vehicle and can be reloaded by exchanging the entire box compartment after a mission.

Of course in combination with direct fire turrets. 

Because you will want 90 missiles to accompany your column, not 9, and you want redundancy, so bring more than one master vehicle that has 2-3 slave vehicles in tow.

Edited June 6 by Carolus

[Kraft]

Hopefully the rate of these will increase.