Der Zeitgeist Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 1 minute ago, danfrodo said: Sholz throws a wrench into this, for whatever f-ing reason, but hopefully we'll get past that ASAP. We are past that. Thanks to the US sending M1s. Like Scholz apparently suggested last week. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sross112 Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 5 hours ago, TheVulture said: 5 hours ago, Huba said: - Chally2 seems to be happening already, but a company is quite pointless. Either the numbers have to be increased so that a full battalion/ mech brigade can be equipped with it, or it will be used in some kinda of a ring exchange scheme with one of the smaller Leo2 operators. 10 tanks, or whatever it was, is pretty pointless, and unlike with the Leo2, it's not like there are half a dozen countries that can also chip in a small number, making a battaltion's worth in total. I think it might actually be a good idea to get 10 modern western MBTs into the hands of the UA as soon as possible. I'm not saying that 10 are going to change the course of the war or these super weapons will take Moscow or anything like that. I do think it would be very useful for the UA logistics and planning to deal with a few. It has been mentioned that their size and weight might be problems. What better way to find out than to have to move 10 Challys from Lviv to the eastern front. Figure out the problems for 10 so that you are ready when 100 show up. It could be months before meaningful numbers of MBTs start arriving. In the meantime if the UA could take an experienced tank company and put those 10 Chally's into it, train them up for a few weeks and put them to use. Again, not saying miracles are going to occur and they will single handedly wipe the RA from the face of the earth. Saying it might be very useful for them to see what the enhanced FCS, thermals, armor and digital integration add to their capabilities in comparison to the T72 variants they have been running. It should also give them a very good idea of the maintenance and logistics requirements that they can then extrapolate to determine what they'll need when the larger batches arrive. The flip side is maybe they will all be mangled wrecks smoking on the battlefield within a week. In which case some of us will be happy that our theory of tanks not being worth it on the modern battlefield has been proven. Conversely, they might do an extraordinary job and some of us will be happy that our theory that tanks are alive and well is proven. Until they get them in range of the enemy I don't think that question will be answered. I for one am very curious as to what they will bring to the table and how they can be used. I've thought a bit about what @Splinty said in reference to the Bradleys. He thought they might show the most promise by using their vehicle thermals and FCS for better target identification and destruction. The big tanks might be best used that way as well and be more survivable at the same time. I don't think they are a silver bullet but I do think they have promise to give a substantial edge to the corrosive warfare already employed by the UA. Of course some of you will say that it can't be done. That a single short company can't be fielded because they have to have x,y and z to make it work. Well, the UA doesn't fight by western doctrine and we have repeatedly pointed out that they are pretty good at their hybrid systems and integrating new stuff into it. It could be a good opportunity for experimentation. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Zeitgeist Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 "The Scholz effect" 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_MonkeyKing Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 8 minutes ago, Der Zeitgeist said: "The Scholz effect" "The Scholz effect" The effect created by Scholzing in which the desired outcome of Scholzing gets reversed because of external factors. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FancyCat Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 8 minutes ago, Der Zeitgeist said: "The Scholz effect" If that guy thought about it for a moment, he might realise there's a big difference between escalating something alone and with friends. Article 5 is not enough here - its language is pretty vague. The best possible solution is that both the US and the various European countries unite to support Ukraine with tanks and the supplies they need. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_MonkeyKing Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 Just now, Bulletpoint said: If that guy thought about it for a moment, he might realise there's a big difference between escalating something alone and with friends. Article 5 is not enough here - its language is pretty vague. The best possible solution is that both the US and the various European countries unite to support Ukraine with tanks and the supplies they need. Yeah, makes you wonder why Germany has not taken this stance. Or at least has had a historical PR failure in the matter... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FancyCat Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 Long thread doing overview of how Russia is attacking, evolving (devolving). All known, but I like the graphics made. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 Just now, The_MonkeyKing said: Yeah, makes you wonder why Germany has not taken this stance. Or at least has had a historical PR failure in the matter... True, it's not been pretty. I can only assume the reason is because it would not be very diplomatic for Germany to hint at the US that they were not 100 pct sure they could trust them if it came to a direct confrontation with Russia. But on the other hand, basing national security politics on trust in promises of protection is what landed Ukraine in this mess in the first place. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Zeitgeist Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 2 minutes ago, The_MonkeyKing said: Yeah, makes you wonder why Germany has not taken this stance. Or at least has had a historical PR failure in the matter... Scholz actually HAS taken this stance. He spelled it out dozens of times since shortly after the beginning of the war. The problem is that nobody believed he was honest with that and/or ridiculed that stance as that of a coward. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbindc Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 18 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said: True, it's not been pretty. I can only assume the reason is because it would not be very diplomatic for Germany to hint at the US that they were not 100 pct sure they could trust them if it came to a direct confrontation with Russia. But on the other hand, basing national security politics on trust in promises of protection is what landed Ukraine in this mess in the first place. That's a very strange take. The US is going 3/5ths of the way in for Ukraine...inarguably a far less strategically important interest to the US than Germany. The idea that we would do that and then leave Germany to fend for itself makes zero sense. If that's what Berlin is worried about then the Scholtz gov't is more at sea than I realized. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertFox Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 I don't think this one has been posted yet. Another Pointer Of Doom video, this time with suicide drones: Seems the Russians have either too little infantry in one spot or too much. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said: I don't think this one has been posted yet. Another Pointer Of Doom video, this time with suicide drones: Seems the Russians have either too little infantry in one spot or too much. Steve Who knows what happened. There's a cut in the video just before the first explosion, and I don't see any troops in the trench after the cut. Not any dead ones either. Could be they all ran into the dugout. Edited January 24, 2023 by Bulletpoint 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraft Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said: But on the other hand, basing national security politics on trust in promises of protection is what landed Ukraine in this mess in the first place. I'd fire any advisor telling me the Russian army is capable of taking over Europe, with US boots or without, on the spot. What makes this even more nonsensical is the fact that there are already thousands of US boots on the "front line" that would be among the first to get into combat. Killing Russians and protecting Europe(=US interest) has been the greatest unifier in US politics since atleast 2 decades. Edited January 24, 2023 by Kraft 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraft Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said: Who knows what happened. There's a cut in the video just before the first explosion, and I don't see any troops in the trench after the cut. Not any dead ones either. Could be they all ran into the dugout. https://t.me/robert_magyar/371 11:20 is where that scene comes from. Notice the Russian outside dying in the most random way. Edited January 24, 2023 by Kraft 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butschi Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 9 minutes ago, Kraft said: I'd fire any advisor telling me the Russian army is capable of taking over Europe, with US boots or without, on the spot. It's not about a conventional attack, noone believes in that, not even in Germany. Nuclear war is what people fear. And saying that the US would retaliate - and so risk destruction themselves - in case of a nuclear strike against Europe alone is at least asking for a lot of trust. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huba Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 30 - 50 M1s according to Politico. That would mean Germany will send a bit less than that, but perhaps at least 2 companies. Not a huge number, but enough to get the ball rolling.https://www.politico.com/news/2023/01/24/u-s-approving-abrams-tanks-ukraine-00079218 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinophile Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 M1s in UKR....? https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/24/world/russia-ukraine-news/the-us-is-moving-closer-to-sending-its-best-tank-to-ukraine-officials-say?smid=url-share 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_MonkeyKing Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 2 minutes ago, Kinophile said: M1s in UKR....? https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/01/24/world/russia-ukraine-news/the-us-is-moving-closer-to-sending-its-best-tank-to-ukraine-officials-say?smid=url-share Seems to be happening by the looks of it. These level of "rumors" have rarely turned out false in this war. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertFox Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 2 minutes ago, Butschi said: It's not about a conventional attack, noone believes in that, not even in Germany. Nuclear war is what people fear. And saying that the US would retaliate - and so risk destruction themselves - in case of a nuclear strike against Europe alone is at least asking for a lot of trust. We grew up with this latent nuclear threat in europe. People need to get used to it. If they push the button they will be dead in no time. They know it, so no need to be afraid of it or to get blackmailed by the russians with their nuclear nonsense. They wont use it, and if they use it, no politician can avoid that, because they have to be insane to do so and you cant stop lunatics by politics. So get used to it and carry on as if nukes were not existant. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Zeitgeist Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 Germany will send at least one company of Leopard 2A6. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huba Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 Awesome, it means it will be equipment form BW stock! Hopefully it will also mean no more block for industry selling what they have on their hands. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FancyCat Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 Switzerland is prepping to approve exports to Ukraine. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butschi Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 17 minutes ago, DesertFox said: So get used to it and carry on as if nukes were not existant. No. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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