FancyCat Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 2 minutes ago, danfrodo said: Hopefully NYTimes is getting bad info. I think this is a stupid think for UKR to have done Decent chance it's a message and the NYT has been chosen as the carrier for it. What the message is? Who knows. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 3 hours ago, cesmonkey said: https://www.forces.net/ukraine/what-cost-nato-countries-win-war-ukraine How much will it cost NATO nations for Ukraine to defeat Russia? This is the greatest bargain in history, LITERALLY! 3 hours ago, Kinophile said: @Battlefront.com Another flag.... Notable that these guys self organized without the pressure of combat losses to get them stirred up. Someone motivated them, informed them and organized them to a take a stand, despite threat of law enforcement. From little acorns... Ant resemblance between this and 1917 is purely coincidental... 2 hours ago, Beleg85 said: There are official narrations and unofficial ones. In first it is true German gov. takes full responsbility (it cannot be otherwise, as they they are bounded by law). It is also fair to say German society as a whole did very good job at recognizing and internalizing their historical faults, which is very difficult thing to implement in reality. Unfortunatelly, in reality we often encounter parallel narrations, when German common social conciousness do everything to push away responsibility by victim blaming, selective historical readings or focusing on own suffering. There is still plenty of that in common communications; one just need to remember public figures like Erica Steinbach or former chancellor Schroeder. Add traditional Prussian (not German) language of disregard for Eastern neighours considered inferior and "stateless" (not only against Poles, but also Czechs, Balts, Russians, Ukrainians etc.- it's surprising how this superiority complex simply don't want to die in practice, even after so many years), urge of DE oligarchic elites to make business with Russia at any cost, visible elements of economical colonialism in CEE, and -on CEE side- slow deconstruction of liberal democracy and rise of populism in many states. In the effect we have a problem with common relations that goes well beyond differences re Russia. But perhaps we shouldn't talk about this issue too much here again, as it is deeply polarizing and may distract us from observing war. Let's focus on new geopolitical devlopments...like sudden rise of Czech Navy. This is too funny. 2 hours ago, Grigb said: Looks like we are on the verge of another regrouping in Kherson. Few hours ago, RU reported UKR started major assault. I was waiting for confirmation but just now RU solders from there reported: My prediction is the outskirts of Kherson city in a week, and the surrender of anyone to stupid to escape a week later. The Russians on the right bank are done. The only question is how many run, how many die, and how many surrender. I suspect the AFU intentionally waited until the water was cold. I still don't rule out a dam of Russian bodies at the mouth of the river, but I think the needle is moving towards large scale surrenders. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbindc Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 4 minutes ago, FancyCat said: The only way I could see Ukraine killing Dugina would be as a warning against Russia attempting to kill any Ukrainian officials. In that sense, killing someone not important or someone less important like Dugina's father would make sense. Otherwise, there isn't any reason for Ukraine to kill her. Certainly no reason to lose whatever assets exist in Russia to do so for such a worthless target. I am seriously surprised by this but I believe it given the source. There *had* been a line of thought out there before mobilization that it has been a problem for Ukraine that Russians were able to live their lives without suffering any real ill effects of the war and were thus happy to support it. It seems like this was one response. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grigb Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 2 minutes ago, danfrodo said: Hopefully NYTimes is getting bad info. I think this is a stupid think for UKR to have done Husband of that woman was/is RU agent. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NamEndedAllen Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 1 hour ago, danfrodo said: Yeah, well, they were anti-Iraq war because it was built on lies. Cheney et al conflated 9-11 w saddam hussein and then told KNOWN lies about WMD. So they were right, as much as I wanted Saddam dead like most folks. I was ~70-80% against the Iraq invasion; it was built on lies and exploited american anger and grief to try to realize neo-con wet dream fantasies. (sounds crazy but I kinda feel bad for Bush -- he was a trusting guy who trusted rotten bastards, and he realized that by ~2006 by which time he wouldn't give cheney the time of day. T think Bush would've been happier to just live his trust fund baby life w occasional nice cushy jobs watching baseball and other sports -- actually this sounds kinda good to me right now ) I supported US going into Afghanistan, though I thought we should have gotten out earlier -- TheCapt & CombatInfMan might correct my thinking on this. There is no contradiction between opposing a wrong war and supporting a right one. Markos (head of Kos) is a veteran and his army son just entered ranger school. Contrary to popular belief, not all military folks are MAGA. And yes, I always put the disclaimer, because I think that is a courteous thing to do and helps to not distract the forum. So let's get back on track! Good point. Regarding that “warning” though, why not always appending a similar labeling for links to any conservative sites that might also have headlines with political slants. Or maybe better to simply drop the whole political labeling thing and assumptions about tender feelings among the huge population here. Because the emphasis simply underscores the politics, not the information itself. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grigb Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 4 minutes ago, dan/california said: My prediction is the outskirts of Kherson city in a week, and the surrender of anyone to stupid to escape a week later. The Russians on the right bank are done. The only question is how many run, how many die, and how many surrender. I suspect the AFU intentionally waited until the water was cold. I still don't rule out a dam of Russian bodies at the mouth of the river, but I think the needle is moving towards large scale surrenders. I think more or less the same, but it looks like Kherson is so important for them that we should expect they will throw everything they got at UKR. Not ruling out even Nuke. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbindc Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 11 minutes ago, dan/california said: This is the greatest bargain in history, LITERALLY! Ant resemblance between this and 1917 is purely coincidental... This is too funny. My prediction is the outskirts of Kherson city in a week, and the surrender of anyone to stupid to escape a week later. The Russians on the right bank are done. The only question is how many run, how many die, and how many surrender. I suspect the AFU intentionally waited until the water was cold. I still don't rule out a dam of Russian bodies at the mouth of the river, but I think the needle is moving towards large scale surrenders. The Sacramento Bee June 6, 1917 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 1 minute ago, Grigb said: I think more or less the same, but it looks like Kherson is so important for them that we should expect they will throw everything they got at UKR. Not ruling out even Nuke. Nuke aside, we have discussed that one to death, the Russians appear to have approximately nothing. And if they really start rearranging things in the rest of the south to support Kherson it is at least 50/50 the Ukrainians have another force waiting to show them the error of their ways. If the Russians get caught with too many units in transit do to bad orders and general command incompetence Ukraine will break the whole Russian army by Christmas. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FancyCat Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 I saw someone, somewhere say this, and it really hammers in how vague this article is on details. I mean, we don't even get any info on whether the Russian accusation on the bombing perpetrator is legit or not. I mean not even a indication of what branch of the Ukrainian government carried this out. Quote Ukraine authorized it. Who? Not known. Who carried it out? Not known. Did Zelenskyy know? Not known. Was Dugin the target? Some people think so US 'admonished' Ukraine. Who specifically admonished Ukraine? Not known. Who did they admonish? Not known. How did Ukraine take it? Not known. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Zeitgeist Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 Michael Weiss has some interesting points about the NY Times article and what the reasoning of the US might be of leaking that info now (it's an entire thread): 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiduk Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 Some UKR engineers: PTS-2 crosses the jeep with team through Siverskyi Donets Assembling of pontoon bridge through Oskil (?) river 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 (edited) 36 minutes ago, danfrodo said: Hopefully NYTimes is getting bad info. I think this is a stupid think for UKR to have done This is one of those things we won't REALLY know for years. She was a bad person and an enemy of Ukraine, but not worth burning a very valuable match eliminate. Unless Ukraine has ten plus agents deep enough into the right parts of Moscow to kill semi significant figures in the Russian government/establishment. I am going to speculate a little here.... I think the U.S. has gotten wind of some OTHER operation inside Russia to eliminate someone who actually DOES matter, and they are trying to warn the Ukrainians off from carrying out the operation. It is the only reason I can see to talk about this publicly, now. Edit: From the article "Countries traditionally do not discuss other nations’ covert actions, for fear of having their own operations revealed, but some American officials believe it is crucial to curb what they see as dangerous adventurism, particularly political assassinations." Edited October 5, 2022 by dan/california 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 1 hour ago, acrashb said: So is it still a box when it's empty? Does the box, the thing have purpose? Or are we... what's the word... You said, in effect, that the credibility of Russian soldiers / agents filling a box with dental appliances (gold) was low because they wouldn't have left them behind but would have stuffed them into pockets etc. I showed a picture of boxes of dental appliances (gold) from WWII to indicate, that if it happened before it could happen again. Which it apparently has, but time and international investigation will confirm. The box isn't relevant - it's the contents and the usage of the box that makes the comparison work and suggests that Russian soldiers / agents ripping gold from people's mouths is on the plus side of likelihood. I completely agree that it could very well be that Russians have literally murdered people for their dental fillings. But there could also be other explanations, such as them looting the fillings from people who died from other causes (grave robbery is not exactly nice, but it's not murder), or maybe the box and its contents are from a completely other context and is just being used for propaganda purposes. That's what I meant by "a box looks like a box". Right now all we have to go by is a pic uploaded to Twitter. We'll probably know the truth soon enough, because either there will be survivors of torture who will come forward to tell their story, or lots of dead bodies with missing dental fillings will be found. I'd like to reserve judgment till then. There's enough confirmed atrocities to be outraged about as it is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 Kazakhstan snubs Russian demand to expel Ukrainian ambassador (msn.com) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grigb Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 (edited) Meanwhile I got to watch videos from that train full of mobilized from 1 Taman division. That is indeed like patriotic mutiny. Tank and BTR are showing up. [UPDATE] Mobilization was announced on 21-Sept. And the first mutiny started on 5-Oct. I am impressed. [UPDATE2] These guys have ammo. Edited October 5, 2022 by Grigb 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 (edited) somebody is feeling a bit insecure.... Miss Crimea punished for singing Ukrainian "fighting anthem" (msn.com) Last month, the Moscow-installed head of the peninsula Sergei Aksyonov warned Crimeans that authorities would react "harshly" to such songs after Chervona Kalyna was played at a wedding. "Singing such nationalist anthems — especially during the special military operation — will be punished," Aksyonov said in a video on Telegram in September, using Moscow's terminology to describe its military invasion of Ukraine. Edited October 5, 2022 by sburke 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiduk Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 (edited) About Dugina elimination. You shouldn't underestimate capabilities of UKR agents. I belive this was really UKR action (though we can never know about this), but main target was Dugin and only accidentaly his doughter was killed, because Dugin decided to drive later by other car. Dugin is not "nobody". His "EuroAsian ideology" philosophy is one of fundamental stones of Putin's ideocracy. His ideas had influence on Putin as well as philosophy of Ilyin - Dugin's predaccessor, which unofficially considered as "pholosopher and theoretic of Russian fascism" - Putin cited Ilyin in own recent speech. Zelenskyi and Danilov many times hinted UKR to reach anybody, who commited a military crime, treason or was involved in the outbreak of hateful anti-ukrainian rhetoric and finally the war. So, maybe we already heve own prototype of Mossad. And because Zelenskyi is Jew, I think Israel can assist in this in backroom way. Edited October 5, 2022 by Haiduk 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FancyCat Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 (edited) It was the BMP’s idea to surrender (but might be training): Edited October 5, 2022 by akd 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Probus Posted October 5, 2022 Author Share Posted October 5, 2022 47 minutes ago, dan/california said: 4 hours ago, cesmonkey said: https://www.forces.net/ukraine/what-cost-nato-countries-win-war-ukraine How much will it cost NATO nations for Ukraine to defeat Russia? This is the greatest bargain in history, LITERALLY! Ditto @and/california. I completely agree. There are no two ways about it, Ukraine (with massive support from the West) is doing to Russia what 40+ years of Cold War had trouble doing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiduk Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 (edited) UKR trench. The deep hole can rise your chances during artilley shellings Edited October 5, 2022 by Haiduk 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Letter from Prague Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 If this NYT article is a way to stop Ukraine to politically assassinate someone, I wonder who. As I see it, the biggest threat to Ukraine right now is Western support drying up with territory not liberated if Putin is retired by "nice" and "liberal" person. So if I was them, I would think hard about offing Navalny or something. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beleg85 Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Haiduk said: About Dugina elimination. You shouldn't underestimate capabilities of UKR agents. I belive this was really UKR action (though we can never know about this), but main target was Dugin and only accidentaly his doughter was killed, because Dugin decided to drive later by other car. Dugin is not "nobody". His "EuroAsian ideology" philosophy is one of fundamental stones of Putin's ideocracy. His ideas had influence on Putin as well as philosophy of Ilyin - Dugin's predaccessor, which unofficially considered as "pholosopher and theoretic of Russian fascism" - Putin cited Ilyin in own recent speech. Zelenskyi and Danilov many times hinted UKR to reach anybody, who commited a military crime, treason or was involved in the outbreak of hateful anti-ukrainian rhetoric and finally the war. So, maybe we already heve own prototype of Mossad. And because Zelenskyi is Jew, I think Israel can assist in this in backroom way. It would be really poor choice for target. While disguisting ideologists, Dugin is still a civilian directly uninvolved in massacres. He wasn't even most ukrainophobic creature in Russian nats scene; Strielkov or some senior henchmen from Donbas would make much better targets. I see only downsides for Ukraine for trying to eliminate him, including international condemnation. Really odd case. Video from Ukrainan "tank riders" being ambushed; reportedly nobody was hurt, but one guy in the video had uniform in flames. Pretty dangerous job. Edited October 5, 2022 by Beleg85 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 (edited) posting error Edited October 5, 2022 by dan/california 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 (edited) 37 minutes ago, FancyCat said: Well they scared the western world into redoubling assistance to Ukraine, so excellent work.... Edited October 5, 2022 by dan/california 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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