John Kettler Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 (edited) In a move that clearly worries the Kremlin, which expresses concern about potentially destabilizing the region, the Ukrainian Army conducted its first drone attack and destroyed a Separatist D-30 howitzer apparently conducting shelling despite the ceasefire. It's unclear what the drone used as a weapon, or whether some sort of smaller suicide drone was a weapon. Whatever it was, one crew member apparently hear or saw it coming and bolted from the gun, but others were nearby when the striking weapon arrived. The explosion size and terminal effects suggest a very small warhead, a notion reinforced by apparent survival (condition unknown) of crew still at the gun position. The gun, the real target of the strike, appears to be out of action or even wrecked, but low imagery res makes determining this difficult.Decoding Kremlin speak, believe what it's really saying is that for the UA to hit back against unlawful attacks during the ceasefire by its Kremlin-controlled Separatists is depriving the Kremlin of its prior ability to continue to inflict attrition on the UA even when there's ostensibly no combat taking place. The casualties are just as real during a ceasefire as they are during outright war. Would expect the Kremlin to be deluged with urgent requests from the Separatists that it deploy drone countermeasures to the Donbass to protect against further attacks on the one hand or even return some drones to sender, as was done in Syria. The strike imagery in the Daily Sabah article was obtained mere days ago--October 27, 2021. https://www.facebook.com/DAILYSABAH/posts/2038218113001937https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/42894/ukraine-strikes-russian-backed-forces-using-turkish-made-tb2-drones-for-the-first-timehttps://bulgarianmilitary.com/amp/2020/07/08/electronic-defense-which-systems-are-developed-in-russia-to-counter-drones/ Regards, John Kettler Edited October 30, 2021 by John Kettler 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted October 30, 2021 Author Share Posted October 30, 2021 Even if not directly pertinent to CMSF2 or CMBS now , and with drones already in both games for recon and target designation, at the very least would argue that being on top of, to at least a working level, of this rapidly emerging real world threat is important for possible future expansions. Nor is the tmieframe off by much, for the jihadis were already dropping mortar bombs and homemade bombs from drones in 2016.https://www.memri.org/reports/decade-jihadi-organizations-use-drones-–-early-experiments-hizbullah-hamas-and-al-qaeda Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 I suspect that it used a MAM-L, which may have been rather more costly than the howitzer that it destroyed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armorgunner Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 34 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said: I suspect that it used a MAM-L, which may have been rather more costly than the howitzer that it destroyed. The Cost, depends not only to the cost of the howitzer. But to the cost of what it could have destroyed, right? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 Undoubtedly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiduk Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said: I suspect that it used a MAM-L, which may have been rather more costly than the howitzer that it destroyed. No, this was small MAM-C and probably with HEAT warhead. This explains why crew could survive. By the words of DNR fighter of that brigade, the strike caused 1 light injury. Later offiicially DNR sources claimed about two shell-shocked. The damage level of howitzer is currently unknown. @John Kettler This was short and unclear sharpening around Staromaryivka village on the eastern bank of Kalmius river. The village was in the gray zone, formally it belonged to UKR controlled territory, but DNR claimed all that on eastern side of the river is "their". But there is no any authorities of both sides in the village. Though, separs claimed from 180 inhabitants, 37 already got Russian citizenship. 26th Oct there was launched humanitarian and medical aid mission in the village in cooperative with OSCE. 93rd brigade maintained security and enetered in the village - separs told they set pontoon on the river and crossed to the village (the bridge is destroyed since 2014). There are no clashes around, but, separs moved artillery and mortars soon and opened fire on UKR position in Hranitne village, which lays almost oppose to Staromaryivka, but on the western bank of the river. Because of shelling one UKR trooper was killed and one wounded. Brigade requsted of OOS HQ any support to shut up howitzers, because their artillery was too far to immediately respond. Probably HQ had "plan B" for this situation, because Bayraktar was on duty not far from this area. Reportedly it arrived through 5 minutes and launced own ammunition from 11 km (very strange, because MAM-C range is 8 km). On the video you can see coordinates in right lower corner. This is either place of the drone (and then it was behind the frontline) or the coordinates of target. After the strike crews abandoned the guns and the shelling is stopped. Both sides next two days had fire exchanges - enemy fired on Hranitne, UKR shelled outskirts of Telmanove town (renamed in Boykivske). Current status of the village still unclear. Enemy didn't make any attempts to retake it. 93rd brigade made a statement after the finishing of humanitarian mission, they withdrew from the village on own positions according to Minsk agreements, but UKR military journalist Butusov, issued a video, where UKR soldiers set the flag over road sign with name of the village. Also he claimed UKR troops set new positions and village is firmly our. Edited October 30, 2021 by Haiduk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiduk Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, John Kettler said: Nor is the tmieframe off by much, for the jihadis were already dropping mortar bombs and homemade bombs from drones in 2016. On Donbas both sides also used opportunity of light ammunition dropping from commercial drones. VOG-17/25, old HEAT grenades RKG-2, self-made HEFRAG bombs, 82 mm mortar mines... On this video the night attack of UKR commercial drone with two RKG-2 (?) with attached stabilizers on enemy BMP-2 in the trench, covered by masking net. Despite on the second direct hit, separs later told on own forum BMP got only light damages and even kept opportunity to move. On 1:03 this is not crewman runs, but the cat ) Edited October 30, 2021 by Haiduk 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted November 3, 2021 Author Share Posted November 3, 2021 Haiduk, Once again you bring us a wealth of insights we almost certainly would never get, and from a perspective only a few on this Forum have. All More info on Turkish MAM miniature bombs and missiles. Thought at first it was bombs only, but evidently I was wrong. As far as the warhead being only a small HEAT warhead, it is a tandem charge intended to defeat ERA. Depending on hit location, the D-30 is likely to be junk, but that's by no means a certainty. It's not hard to come up with scenarios requiring only a short stint in the ordnance shop. A blast frag would've wrecked the gun and the crew, but maybe the drone was already up and armed to kill AFVs, in which case, you use what's overhead, in an effort to immediate stop the fires that are wounding and killing your. people.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAM_(Smart_Micro_Munition)https://militaryleak.com/2020/03/16/mam-laser-guided-smart-micro-munition/ Turkey's also doing workup on weapon integration for a much bigger, higher payload drone--one that delivers de facto JDAMs of the 100 pound and 2000 pound classes. Combat radius is 2500 kilometers. Unless you have a robust air defense and totally trust it, think twice before torquing off the Truks!https://southfront.org/turkeys-bayraktar-akinci-drone-spotted-with-heavy-guided-bomb-photos/ Regards, John. Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiduk Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 1 hour ago, John Kettler said: Turkey's also doing workup on weapon integration for a much bigger, higher payload drone--one that delivers de facto JDAMs of the 100 pound and 2000 pound classes. Combat radius is 2500 kilometers. Unless you have a robust air defense and totally trust it, think twice before torquing off the Truks!https://southfront.org/turkeys-bayraktar-akinci-drone-spotted-with-heavy-guided-bomb-photos/ Akinci equipped with Ukrainian engines, so there is some chance to see it once in our army. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted November 4, 2021 Author Share Posted November 4, 2021 Rats! That was de facto JDAMs of the 1000 (NOT 100) pound and 2000 pound classes. Haiduk, Didn't know that, but most interesting. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted November 4, 2021 Share Posted November 4, 2021 16 hours ago, Haiduk said: Akinci equipped with Ukrainian engines, so there is some chance to see it once in our army. The Akinci looks a very capable system: https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2021/10/the-275-kilometer-sniper-rifle.html 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZPB II Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 The drone threat has been mainstream for 15 or so years at least but anti-drone drones still aren't a thing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 (edited) It's the combination of drones & stand-off loitering munitions that seems to be making the difference.....That said, they've never been tried against a properly integrated air defence sytem. While Pantsir S2 seemed to struggle with them in Syria, Tor M2 was reportedly quite effective (if perhaps a bit expensive). Edited November 5, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiduk Posted November 11, 2021 Share Posted November 11, 2021 (edited) @John Kettler @Bufo UKR volunteer UAV unit "Aerorozvidka" (eng. "Air recon") issued the video of own strike detachment combat work. They use armed variant of R18 "Zhnets' " (eng. "Reaper") octocopter. This UAV was developed by initiative group of Zhytomyr Military Institute and produces in small number in their own workshop. Strike variant of the drone armed with two RKG-1600 HEAT bombs, designed by Mayak factory on the base of old Soviet RKG-3 HEAT antitank grenade. Accuracy of dropping is 1 sq.m from 300 m of altitude. In the video you can see not only different strikes on enemy vehilces and facilities in night conditions, but also working of UAV operator with some sort FBCB system "Delta" On the photo R18 dropping the bomb RKG-1600 bombs Video (from 62 second) Edited November 12, 2021 by Haiduk 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THH149 Posted November 14, 2021 Share Posted November 14, 2021 I'm so confused as to what modern war would look like. Sometimes I think it'll be a quasi world war one bunker and trench line about 10-km wide over which nothing could move as it would be constantly monitored by ATGMs, drone swarms and satellites, while other times I think it'll be fast moving tank warfare entering the operational depths of an enemy within hours. How about CMBS 2024 to test the theories? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 There are "degrees of war". All out "high intensity war" these days would probably involve much cyberwar at a level never before seen in the world, which could cripple the infrastructures of all the involved nations making the purely military aspects irrelevant. The kind of (contemporary) wars we play at with CM that have actually occurred (CMSF with Iraq or Afghan mods, and CMA) are more like the "colonial wars " in which one side has massive tech superiority and the other uses asymmetric tactics like Imines, IED's etc. CM offers low-intensity peer-peer conflict like CMCW and CMBS that have never occurred (and probably never would as they would quickly escalate to nuclear) making them more akin to "sci-fi games". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bufo Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 8 hours ago, Erwin said: CM offers low-intensity peer-peer conflict like CMCW and CMBS How are these low intensity? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 (edited) My definition re not all-out with nukes, chem/bio and cyberwar (in the case of CMBS). I fear that we have little concept of what high-intensity in the era of cyberwar will entail and if it will be as destructive to our societies/infrastructures as nukes, and/or chem/biological war (altho' how the world has reacted to Covid has give us a small glimpse). At least cyberwar may be more "green". Although if nuke power stations blow, maybe not. Edited November 15, 2021 by Erwin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted November 16, 2021 Share Posted November 16, 2021 If you can't shoot down drones by the dozen, or even by the hundred you are not going to last long on the modern battlefield. And nobody has any idea what stuff is going to work and what isn't between hacking, jamming, non nuclear EMP, and who knows what else. It could easily wind up that both sides are fighting virtually blind by recent standards. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted November 16, 2021 Share Posted November 16, 2021 https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/15/science/russia-anti-satellite-missile-test-debris.html Like mean satellite survival being measured in hours. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bufo Posted November 16, 2021 Share Posted November 16, 2021 16 hours ago, Erwin said: My definition re not all-out with nukes, chem/bio and cyberwar (in the case of CMBS). I fear that we have little concept of what high-intensity in the era of cyberwar will entail and if it will be as destructive to our societies/infrastructures as nukes, and/or chem/biological war (altho' how the world has reacted to Covid has give us a small glimpse). At least cyberwar may be more "green". Although if nuke power stations blow, maybe not. As I know these are medium intensity conflicts (open fight with all military assets excluding WMDs). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHO Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 On 10/30/2021 at 5:52 PM, Sgt.Squarehead said: I suspect that it used a MAM-L No, MAM-C. It's a Turkish take at APKWS less the engine to save some weight as TB2's payload is rather limited. MAM-L is kinda... Impressive in terms of HE contents 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 On 11/16/2021 at 1:01 AM, Bufo said: As I know these are medium intensity conflicts (open fight with all military assets excluding WMDs). Am predicting that in addition to chem/biowar and nuclear that cyberwar will (has the potential to) be a WMD. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted November 18, 2021 Author Share Posted November 18, 2021 (edited) Don't know the story behind this, but people are doubtless buried in paperwork because of what happened. Image was posted by Alexiy Tyuzhin of FB. Regards, John Kettler Edited November 18, 2021 by John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 Twice.....Really? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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