How to deal with soviet smg teams?

[LXGTR]

Heya,

I'm currently playing the german campaign in Red Thunder and I keep losing soldiers because of soviet smg teams. They're really accurate with their bursts even up to 200 meters, while my infantry doesn't hit anything. It's especially worse in urban combat, because they hide until the last second and then absolutely destroy entire squads. I'm probably gonna cry if I lose anymore people because it's so frustrating

How do you fight the soviet smg teams?

[benpark]

The best method is to play to whatever strengths are available. In most cases, this is longer-range firepower (particularly medium machine guns) that should be tasked to keeping the SMG forces at arm's length. Any armor or half-tracks available can work as mobile "bunkers", as well.

In terrain that has longer sight lines, this is an easier task than towns and urban areas. In these cases, the fire-lanes should be investigated and strong-points established where these can be as well situated as possible. These scenarios (defensive ones, in particular) involve displacing your forces as the enemy advances. It also helps to establish pickets in any building interiors where the enemy may be infiltrating forward to flank your MMGs.

In the attack, use scout teams to identify enemy positions- I tend to give these a fairly tight covered arc, and withdraw them at the first sign of trouble with smoke- easier said than done, but better than risking entire squads. Smoke any lane of fire prior to crossing, if enemy forces may have a good lane of fire. Recon by fire is also a decent tactic for keeping those street-lanes quiet. Infiltration is also useful, but that tends to play to the Soviet SMG strength if surprised- so head in close if the enemy has their heads down, from a direction they don't expect.

[danfrodo]

I'm playing the russian side of this in the On to Berlin campaign.  My experience is that the germans are definitely causing me casualties, way more than I'd like.  But once I get enough SMGs involved, the germans are crushed by weight of fire.  It's kinda beautiful from the russian side of things .  

[danfrodo]

By the way, it's a really interesting campaign.  battle #5 was particularly good fun, can't say anything more w/o spoiling the surprises.  So once you are done, play from the russian side and you'll get the flip side of the experience. 

[Redwolf]

21 hours ago, LXGTR said:

How do you fight the soviet smg teams?

Brummbärs

Assault howitzers might do, too.

[Bozowans]

Tanks.

One of the biggest weaknesses of Soviet infantry is their almost complete lack of AT weapons. Everyone else has things like bazookas and panzerschrecks that make you keep your distance. Soviet infantry usually doesn't have anything except grenades. Some of them might have AT rifles but they're not that common and mostly useless against anything other than light vehicles. 

If you have tanks, sometimes you can afford to be aggressive and drive them right up into the Soviets' faces and blast them point blank and they can't do anything about it. It can be fun to drive right up next to an enemy occupied house and blow it up, since you can almost never do that in the other CM titles. In the Fire and Rubble module, the late war Soviets sometimes get captured panzerfausts but I'm not sure how common they are.

For my own infantry, I like to split them down to small teams and spread them out as much as possible. Their job is to mostly just spot things for tanks to shoot at. If they see anything or run into a nest of resistance, they halt or even pull back while my tanks and artillery are called up to deal with it. The infantry only begin advancing again after the enemy positions have been thoroughly plastered by HE and MG fire.

Firefights in this game are usually determined by who can put out more weight and volume of fire than the other guy. If you have no tanks and have no choice but to fight them at close range, you can still beat Soviet SMGs if you find some way to put out more bullets than them, like by sheer weight of numbers, but tanks are always best. 

Edited July 6, 2021 by Bozowans

[chuckdyke]

On 7/6/2021 at 1:54 PM, Bozowans said:

Some of them might have AT rifles but they're not that common and mostly useless against anything other than light vehicles. 

Ever tried your AT Rifles you may be surprised. Quantity is a quality in its own right.

Had them only in a spotting position. The Tiger backed off something traumatic happened inside. 

[Erwin]

IIRC in RL tactics the Soviets used lots of ATR's together.  In our games it's rare to have more than one or two ATR's and that is most probably why they seem ineffective in the game.  This may be an example of small unit actions in CM being too small to properly showcase a weapon system or tactic.  Perhaps Battalion-sized forces with larger numbers of ATR's would demonstrate them better.

[Bozowans]

5 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Ever tried your AT Rifles you may be surprised. Quantity is a quality in its own right.

Good hit! It looked like the bullet didn't penetrate the armor, but went into an open hatch? That must have been a lucky shot. Was it from the side or rear? Was he shooting at the exposed commander?

I've never had much luck with AT rifles myself. Probably more just due to the late war setting. It's common to go up against Panthers and Tigers and you aren't gonna do much against those. Unless they're unbuttoned, but then even normal small arms fire can get them to back off or kill the commander outright.

[Codreanu]

2 hours ago, Bozowans said:

Good hit! It looked like the bullet didn't penetrate the armor, but went into an open hatch? That must have been a lucky shot. Was it from the side or rear? Was he shooting at the exposed commander?

I've never had much luck with AT rifles myself. Probably more just due to the late war setting. It's common to go up against Panthers and Tigers and you aren't gonna do much against those. Unless they're unbuttoned, but then even normal small arms fire can get them to back off or kill the commander outright.

They're probably never gonna actually kill a Panther or Tiger but at least it can spook it a little and slowly degrade the optics, or serve as a distraction while you move actual armor around to the flank. It never hurts to have another cannon fodder unit you can use to locate MG teams too!

[chuckdyke]

5 hours ago, Bozowans said:

I've never had much luck with AT rifles myself.

Use them! Their HQ can call in mortar fire on spotted PAK 75 for example and an AT Rifle is more than capable of penetrating the gun shield. That was the tactical purpose I intended but then two Tiger1's turned up. One got spooked by the AT Rifle then against three T34/85 they came out second best. The most useful guy on a battlefield is the one with binoculars a map who can call in the arty. Which an AT Rifle team can do. 

Edited July 10, 2021 by chuckdyke

[chuckdyke]

7 hours ago, Bozowans said:

Was he shooting at the exposed commander?

He was on an elevated position Hill 400 Scenario Assault. 

[Artkin]

11 hours ago, Erwin said:

IIRC in RL tactics the Soviets used lots of ATR's together.  In our games it's rare to have more than one or two ATR's and that is most probably why they seem ineffective in the game.  This may be an example of small unit actions in CM being too small to properly showcase a weapon system or tactic.  Perhaps Battalion-sized forces with larger numbers of ATR's would demonstrate them better.

What is this? The Civil war?

[Erwin]

There's a thought...  

[DerKommissar]

In my experience, ATRs are rarely devastating. They can only disable a vehicle after a long time of target practice. I've seen them even struggle with marders, hanomags and even armoured cars.

If your tanks are supported by infantry, or recon units, you can reliably eliminate AT rifles. Quicker than, they can cause serious damage.

It all comes down to who can suppress who first. So, keep your heavy hitters close -- outside throwing range. Take it slow, and give advancing infantry plenty of covering fire.

[Artkin]

49 minutes ago, DerKommissar said:

In my experience, ATRs are rarely devastating. They can only disable a vehicle after a long time of target practice. I've seen them even struggle with marders, hanomags and even armoured cars.

If your tanks are supported by infantry, or recon units, you can reliably eliminate AT rifles. Quicker than, they can cause serious damage.

It all comes down to who can suppress who first. So, keep your heavy hitters close -- outside throwing range. Take it slow, and give advancing infantry plenty of covering fire.

My experience was laying down a huge ambushing base of fire with the organic machine gun elements. My opponent had a company+ of mechanized infantry. After my enemy was suppressed, I ran my AT rifles and snipers forward. It was pretty much the full force of panzer grens (although mounted). They never even got sight on my troops moving up closer to engagement ranges. 

My snipers picked off gunners, my ATRs picked off the hanomags at a fast rate. Distance was about 250-400m. The 75mm SPW platoon was far back. Sure they direct fired some positions but I had my troops stay clear. And then when the SPW relocated, they ran into the fire of my Zis-2. 

I think the flexibility of the Soviet infantry company (and battalion assets) makes it the best out of all CMs. 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Artkin

[chuckdyke]

2 hours ago, Artkin said:

ATRs are rarely devastating.

They are like golfclubs you can use them for golf but also for home defense. Taking out trucks, (trucks are mobile ammo dumps). Suppressing AT-Guns a lucky shot on a Tiger1 are my recent positive experiences with this weapon.  

[Artkin]

3 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

They are like golfclubs you can use them for golf but also for home defense. Taking out trucks, (trucks are mobile ammo dumps). Suppressing AT-Guns a lucky shot on a Tiger1 are my recent positive experiences with this weapon.  

lmao you quoted me wrong this has happened once before to you and someone got mad HAHA

I don't mind, but you are quoting incorrectly here

Edited July 13, 2021 by Artkin

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, Artkin said:

I don't mind, but you are quoting incorrectly here

I like AT-Rifles 14.5 mm slug. Here is a decent article Soviet Gun Archives: Infantry vs Tanks (sovietguns.blogspot.com). Recently they had a good look at them. Played with the bore made match-grade ammo and put a scope on it. Here we have the modern sniper rifle. Happy gaming and keep your sense of humor. Sour grapes make bad wine  

[Artkin]

5 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

I like AT-Rifles 14.5 mm slug. Here is a decent article Soviet Gun Archives: Infantry vs Tanks (sovietguns.blogspot.com). Recently they had a good look at them. Played with the bore made match-grade ammo and put a scope on it. Here we have the modern sniper rifle. Happy gaming and keep your sense of humor. Sour grapes make bad wine  

Bro lmao what!!

[chuckdyke]

The Topic is: How to deal with soviet smg teams? The best way to find out is to play as Soviet. Their weakness is lack of range, and they need armored support. The other question is 'Foxholes' once they have become visible the occupants become like spiders. Prisoners in their own web. 

A good team, any tank will do. The Valentine has no MG but has a radio and before the battle organize command and control. Foxholes make it too easy in my opinion for the attacker. The weakness in the Soviet attack is lack of flexibility if you defend as German have top notch communications in your outposts and a plan to withdraw in time. 

 

[chuckdyke]

I rate Soviet infantry fairly high in CM. Just the right mix with bolt and automatic weapons. Once a German unit is located, they better consider a tactical retreat. Just like this guy very athletic.

[Chibot Mk IX]

On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2021 at 10:29 AM, chuckdyke said:

Their weakness is lack of range, and they need armored support. 

Guess that is part of reason why Soviets SMG teams are so formidable in CM.  They always have enough armored support. Most of CM scenario have high density AFV,  puts German player in a dilemma position.  

Try to stop SMG team cold in open ground at long distance will not work, most of time your HMG and LMG team will be eliminated by a salvo of 76mm HE.

try to setup an ambush in keyhole position at close range may backfire for obvious reason. 

 

[chuckdyke]

5 hours ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

HMG and LMG team will be eliminated by a salvo of 76mm HE.

That's why you need a human opponent. Outposts to get the intel of the location of the advancing enemy and plot a counterattack with the objective to separate infantry from their armor. The macromanagement is beyond the scope of the current engine. Playing as German against an attacking AI is no problem. Communication is the Achilles Heel of the Soviets in WW2. As German your defense needs to be mobile as you pointed out foxholes and trenches can quickly be dealt with. FR Mountains of the Moon and FR Red Dawn are excellent scenarios to deal with a static (German) defense.