Move after shooting

[Jabble]

It would be useful to have a "move after shooting" instruction for high-risk ambushes by glass cannons.  I've seen posts on this a while ago but I'm unaware of any changes.

For example, I have a Javelin team hiding at the edge of a forest.  Two enemy tanks appear and my team kills one in the early seconds of the WEGO minute.  If they stay put, preparing for another shot, the other tank is likely to kill them.  If they move immediately into the forest they have a good chance of survival - those few seconds could make all the difference.  Shoot-and-Scoot is a real-life tactic that would be useful in the game, and could be implemented as a triggered move instruction.

Clearly this should only be an option for single-shot weapons that take time to reload, whereas an automatic weapon would just keep firing.

[Artkin]

Although you can work around this, agreed.

[Jabble]

Any suggestions for a workaround, e.g. for that example of a Javelin team?  Bear in mind the appearance of the tanks can't be predicted so no explicit pause & fire can be instructed.

[Erwin]

The only workaround is not satisfactory. One has to have a delayed order to have the ambushing unit move, and that often means that the unit will move before it gets a chance to fire.

I have long advocated for a "Wait in Ambush - Shoot - Then immediately redeploy to a safe location (chosen by the player)" command.   That would be invaluable for tanks, ATGM launchers and ATGM vehicles as well as snipers and any unit that is trying to ambush an enemy.

[Jabble]

Yep, that's the issue - the player can't know if/when a target will appear so a specific time delay won't work.  Especially in the modern games where there are fragile units capable of killing tanks, e.g. Stryker MGS with its armour of tissue paper, it's critical to relocate sharpish.

[z1812]

When I think it useful, I give a hunt order and a reverse order. At the waypoint where hunt meets reverse I use a 5 to 10 second delay, depending on the situation.

[Erwin]

1 hour ago, z1812 said:

When I think it useful, I give a hunt order and a reverse order. At the waypoint where hunt meets reverse I use a 5 to 10 second delay, depending on the situation.

Yes, that is one workaround.  But, assuming it doesn't spot an enemy and stop to fire while on HUNT, 5-10 seconds is sufficient to spot and fire (which it often is not), all further movement may be cancelled and it leaves the unit stuck in place for 30-50 seconds once it fires and it can then be killed easily.  

[Jabble]

1 hour ago, z1812 said:

When I think it useful, I give a hunt order and a reverse order. At the waypoint where hunt meets reverse I use a 5 to 10 second delay, depending on the situation.

That'll not work for ATGMs like Javelin where the team needs to stay put for a while to prepare the shot.  Even allowing a longer pause for that, it still presents a smallish window of opportunity in any WEGO minute when the process may work, instead of continuously being ready.  The longer the pause the better the chance, but then the greater likelihood of hanging around to be being hit by counterfire.

[Jabble]

3 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Yes, that is one workaround.  But, assuming it doesn't spot an enemy and stop to fire while on HUNT, 5-10 seconds is sufficient to spot and fire (which it often is not), all further movement may be cancelled and it leaves the unit stuck in place for 30-50 seconds once it fires and it can then be killed easily.  

A simple move, pause and retreat would work, but increasing the likelihood of good timing equally increases the chance of being killed.  I might as well chance surviving the whole minute.  If I had a good grasp of the prep time for firing I could time the move so that firing was near the end of the minute - but that feels rather like gaming the system.  Plus I doubt if it's a fixed time, depending on when the shooter first notices the target in what conditions.

[Chibot Mk IX]

On 3/28/2021 at 3:12 PM, Jabble said:

Any suggestions for a workaround, e.g. for that example of a Javelin team?  Bear in mind the appearance of the tanks can't be predicted so no explicit pause & fire can be instructed.

In WEGO game this can be done in an ideal situation, it has restrictive condition so most of the time I would not suggest to do that. It is preferred to have Jav team hold fire. then at the end of the turn the intended target is in sight. When issue the order, give a target or armor target arc. In CMBS JAV team needs 15 SECONDS to finish lock/launch. So give a withdraw order  then put 30 Seconds pause (20s pause is also an option , but it could be risky).  

[Chibot Mk IX]

On 3/28/2021 at 3:12 PM, Jabble said:

Any suggestions for a workaround, e.g. for that example of a Javelin team?  Bear in mind the appearance of the tanks can't be predicted so no explicit pause & fire can be instructed.

 

31 minutes ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

In WEGO game this can be done in an ideal situation, it has restrictive condition so most of the time I would not suggest to do that. It is preferred to have Jav team hold fire. then at the end of the turn the intended target is in sight. When issue the order, give a target or armor target arc. In CMBS JAV team needs 15 SECONDS to finish lock/launch. So give a withdraw order  then put 30 Seconds pause (20s pause is also an option , but it could be risky).  

But sometime you must take a gamble.  I had a PBEM game in which my opponent sent 3 BMP-3 to disembark Infantry in front of my position.

I had only one Corsar ATGM team available, and they are not in an ideal position.  There are some trees in front of the building. The next building could be an ideal fire position. So I issued order like this.

 

Here is the result

 

ATGM Maneuver and Fire Part I

ATGM Maneuver and Fire Part II

Edited April 4, 2021 by Chibot Mk IX

[KGBoy]

What I have tried to do (sometimes successful) is to delay the entry into the field of fire till late in the minute. You have more control on the exit with target sighted. Often doesn't work but lessens kill odds a bit. Anyone have reload  stats based on experience? Panzerfausts can be quick!

[FlemFire]

Displace/egress order would be nice. For PvP, it would be a massive buff for defenders.

 

I think it would most benefit the irregulars from Shock Force -- imagine being able to shoot an RPG and then get the hell out of dodge ASAP instead of evaporating instantly in the face of BlueFor's reaction.

[Jabble]

16 hours ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

In WEGO game this can be done in an ideal situation, it has restrictive condition so most of the time I would not suggest to do that. It is preferred to have Jav team hold fire. then at the end of the turn the intended target is in sight. When issue the order, give a target or armor target arc. In CMBS JAV team needs 15 SECONDS to finish lock/launch. So give a withdraw order  then put 30 Seconds pause (20s pause is also an option , but it could be risky).  

 

35 minutes ago, Khalerick said:

Displace/egress order would be nice. For PvP, it would be a massive buff for defenders.

 

I think it would most benefit the irregulars from Shock Force -- imagine being able to shoot an RPG and then get the hell out of dodge ASAP instead of evaporating instantly in the face of BlueFor's reaction.

Thanks guys, at the moment guessing the timing seems to be the best we can do.  FWIW I've put a request in the Engine 5 thread to add a 'react' posture that would enable a unit to relocate ASAP after firing.

[Artkin]

On 3/29/2021 at 9:17 AM, z1812 said:

When I think it useful, I give a hunt order and a reverse order. At the waypoint where hunt meets reverse I use a 5 to 10 second delay, depending on the situation.

Exactly what I was thinking... Hunt, pause, and a move order. Unless hunt cancels it all out (idk in we-go tbh) then:

 

On 4/4/2021 at 11:40 AM, Chibot Mk IX said:

 

But sometime you must take a gamble.  I had a PBEM game in which my opponent sent 3 BMP-3 to disembark Infantry in front of my position.

I had only one Corsar ATGM team available, and they are not in an ideal position.  There are some trees in front of the building. The next building could be an ideal fire position. So I issued order like this.

 

Here is the result

 

ATGM Maneuver and Fire Part I

ATGM Maneuver and Fire Part II

Beautiful.

Edited April 6, 2021 by Artkin

[transporter]

CM1 had a good "shoot and scoot" command but I think it was for armor only.  

[Erwin]

32 minutes ago, transporter said:

CM1 had a good "shoot and scoot" command but I think it was for armor only.  

Correct.  And the time that the vehicle would wait was also limited b4 it reversed.  A "Wait in Ambush until Acquire Target and Shoot, then Scoot" is what we need.

[Redwolf]

23 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Correct.  And the time that the vehicle would wait was also limited b4 it reversed.  A "Wait in Ambush until Acquire Target and Shoot, then Scoot" is what we need.

We need SOPs like in TacOps.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Redwolf

[Bulletpoint]

Some of the gameplay mechanics in CM seem to assume that the player will choose to play in real-time. Whereas I think nearly everyone plays in WeGo.

[Thewood1]

When CMSF first came out, Steve was fairly clear that they were pushing CM2 to be a real-time game.  CMSF 1.0 was really a real-time game with automatic pauses every 60 seconds.  A number of us complained about the lack of the old hunt command, scoot & shoot, and hull down.  Eventually hull down got put back in.  The current hunt command is really the old "move to contact" command.  The old hunt command allowed a unit to stop and fire at a detected enemy, then continue on to its next waypoint without intervention.  That old hunt command was the equivalent of "fire on the halt".  CM2, right now, has no "fire on the halt" capability.  Tanks are always moving and firing.

With all that said, the ability to chain commands together that eventually culminated with the current system after a few years, is far superior to CM1.  And similar to Tacops, Steel Beasts has combinations of movement commands, formations, and tactics to create SOPs that dictate reaction to enemy contact.  They range from stop and reverse, to fire a shot then reverse, to assault.  And like Tacops, you can tell the unit to execute tasks , like unload passengers, fire at a spot, breach a minefield, etc.  These can all be chained together.  Even the default "TacAI" knows to look for cover after firing or seek another hull down position.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Thewood1

[Redwolf]

2 minutes ago, Thewood1 said:

With all that said, the ability to chain commands together that eventually culminated with the current system after a few years, is far superior to CM1.  And similar to Tacops, Steel Beasts has combinations of movement commands, formations, and tactics to create SOPs that dictate reaction to enemy contact.  They range from stop and reverse, to fire a shot then reverse, to assault.  And like Tacops, you can tell the unit to execute tasks , like unload passengers, fire at a spot, breach a minefield, etc.  These can all be chained together.  Even the default "TacAI" knows to look for cover after firing or seek another hull down position.

Right, that is the tradeoff.

If you don't have explicit SOPs you make commands that combine movement and SOPs, such as both CMx1 and CMx2 "hunt" commands. As we can see there is demand for both and that illustrates the problem with this approach: you would end up with dozens or a 100 commands.

The disadvantage of the SOP approach is that you cannot (by default) change them on waypoints. The "composite command" approach allows to change behavior on every waypoint. I think Steel Beasts allows you to attach new SOP sets to waypoints manually, but TacOps does not.

[Thewood1]

Everything in SB is based off the waypoint.  In fact, the units static position, or battle position, is really the same as a waypoint.  You can combine all the same commands.  The unique part is the battle position is not a hard static point.  Based on the SOPs assigned to it's battle position, a unit is allowed to range a certain distance from the position to engage, hide, seek cover, move to a new position, call arty, etc.  There is also a logic engine that allows you to branch to a new waypoint or position based on enemy, casualties, time, or player orders.

I would love to have seen BFC take the order chains to one more level of SOPS and a simple logic engine at each waypoint.

[Thewood1]

The downside of Steel Beasts is the amount of time you spend planning your game/battle out.  I spend twice as long giving orders, setting waypoints, and setting SOPs as I do in actually executing the battle.  In SB, even though it executes at the individual vehicle and team level, you always need to be thinking about flanks, reserves, fuel, and ammo.  As a company or battalion commander in SB you have to do all that planning because when the game starts, you have to have given proper orders or you'll run out of cycles to make decisions.

In CM, I generally give a look at the map, plan a general strategy in my head.  Then execute the plan five minutes at a time.  I look at every unit and contact to make sure to set the orders after a turn runs.  I end up being the brains of almost every unit in an attack.

[Nooop]

Also useful for tanks going up to hull down. Peeked over and took out one T72 out of three. Facing the other way. Could have backed out without retaliation, but have to stay put at the top of a hill for a full minute.

Leopard 2 engaging T55
youtube.com/watch?v=Q7FUjVHx46c