Engine 5 Wishlist

[SlowMotion]

On 12/5/2023 at 7:30 PM, Centurian52 said:

But, if we are still adding things to the features wishlist for some eventual engine upgrade (not Engine 5, but some future feature-focused engine upgrade) then I really need to voice my support for a shoot and scoot command. I didn't need it back when I was playing RT. But now that I'm exclusively playing WEGO the inability to shoot and scoot is a serious handicap. One way I could think to implement it would be as a reverse command that becomes active when the vehicle shoots. Or perhaps it could be a sort of pause order that deactivates when the vehicle shoots. I could just really use some way of shooting and scooting in turn based play.

I think currently it works quite well if you plot a Move command that ends to a point P1 and a Reverse command. Then select the waypoint P1, make a Target command to whatever you want to shoot at. And then while the waypoint is selected, use Pause commands to choose how long your unit keeps shooting at the target. It could be 15 seconds, 20 seconds, 30 seconds or whatever. After that time your vehicle reverses away from the shooting position.

Edited December 14, 2023 by SlowMotion

[OBJ]

Just to pile on to what @SlowMotion said, there is now a 'Target Briefly' in the 'C/Combat' panel. From your shoot/scoot waypoint you can plot a 'target briefly' command to engage at least the area/action point you want to engage, setting your 'Pause' duration to match the 'Target Briefly' duration, or not, before your unit reverses/moves into cover.

[Brille]

11 hours ago, SlowMotion said:

I think currently it works quite well if you plot a Move command that ends to a point P1 and a Reverse command. Then select the waypoint P1, make a Target command to whatever you want to shoot at. And then while the waypoint is selected, use Pause commands to choose how long your unit keeps shooting at the target. It could be 15 seconds, 20 seconds, 30 seconds or whatever. After that time your vehicle reverses away from the shooting position.

Thats not right that what he aims at I guess.

In the way you stated, the unit would retreat after x seconds regardless of it spotted or shot something.

What @Centurian52 supposedly means is that a unit stands in a ready position, spots an enemy and shoots and only then would proceed to another position.

So the action of a unit would determine the start of another waypoint, not a timed countdown.

This would come in handy especially for vulnerable tank hunters,either vehicle or infantry based.

So they would lay in hiding, shoot a round or two at spotted oponents and then automatically retreat into the next firing position before they get obliterated by following enemy units.

Some ATGM vehicles already have at least  an automatic function of some sort: Once they fired a shot and would need to reload AND there is still a threat visible to them they would reverse into the nearest cover or concealment.

 

[OBJ]

I agree, @Brille In my limited experience, the vehicle TAC AI, when recognizing it is outmatched by a spotted enemy, will attempt to retreat/move to cover, firing at the spotted target while retreating.

[Anthony P.]

I too use that method but as @Brille points out, it's not ideal.

[Erwin]

6 hours ago, Brille said:

What @Centurian52 supposedly means is that a unit stands in a ready position, spots an enemy and shoots and only then would proceed to another position.

This another feature that has been requested for many years.  This ambush feature would also be useful for snipers, and any unit lying in wait to ambush.  The important part is the move to a 2nd location after the ambush is effected. 

As has been pointed out, currently one never can accurately predict how long a unit needs to stay in a position b4 it spots and fires - also true for snipers and ATGM (eg: Javelin) teams.

[RMM]

On 12/5/2023 at 12:21 PM, Vacillator said:

Particularly as I don't believe the thread is actually monitored or acted upon in any way by BFC. 

I would be happy to find out I'm wrong about that, but until I do I think this thread is just a sounding off place where users air their thoughts to each other on improvements.  There are similar 'bug' threads in the various forums.

Sorry to hear this might be an issue

[RMM]

3 hours ago, OBJ said:

I agree, @Brille In my limited experience, the vehicle TAC AI, when recognizing it is outmatched by a spotted enemy, will attempt to retreat/move to cover, firing at the spotted target while retreating.

My experience too

[SlowMotion]

On 12/15/2023 at 9:49 AM, Brille said:

Thats not right that what he aims at I guess.

In the way you stated, the unit would retreat after x seconds regardless of it spotted or shot something.

What @Centurian52 supposedly means is that a unit stands in a ready position, spots an enemy and shoots and only then would proceed to another position.

So the action of a unit would determine the start of another waypoint, not a timed countdown.

This would come in handy especially for vulnerable tank hunters,either vehicle or infantry based.

So they would lay in hiding, shoot a round or two at spotted oponents and then automatically retreat into the next firing position before they get obliterated by following enemy units.

Some ATGM vehicles already have at least  an automatic function of some sort: Once they fired a shot and would need to reload AND there is still a threat visible to them they would reverse into the nearest cover or concealment.

 

@Centurion52 also mentioned "Or perhaps it could be a sort of pause order that deactivates when the vehicle shoots. "

This is the version that I like best. The whole point of Shoot And Scoot AFAIK is that staying in place where the enemy may spot you is not healthy. So after some time you reverse to cover.
So it should be possible to define a time limit for how long you wait for enemy to appear before moving to next waypoint. If no limit is given then wait forever and move only after enemy unit has been shot at.

Edited December 17, 2023 by SlowMotion

[Silentkilarz]

The ability of on map arty/mortars to do line/area direct fire just like calling in from a FO.

Ability of selecting what weapons to target briefly with. IE ordering a tank to use only MGs or Main gun.

Being able to order air support to stay in a area even if they dont spot anything right away.

Returning ammo to vehicles. The amount of times I misclick on ammo the unit doesnt need drives me nuts. Allow us to return the 2k 7.62 my rifle squad took when I need 5.56.

Remanning guns after they are abandoned. We can re-crew vehicles but not ATGs?!

Fix breaching. If you breach a building with a wall the unit likes to run all the way around to the front door when there is a massive hole. Also along those lines, dont force the breachers to move after the breach. I want the wall down so my tank/afv can shoot. Not so the infantry runs through in enemy ambush.

Edited December 19, 2023 by Silentkilarz
Thought of more things xD

[chuckdyke]

3 hours ago, Silentkilarz said:

The ability of on map arty/mortars to do line/area direct fire just like calling in from a FO.

Ability of selecting what weapons to target briefly with. IE ordering a tank to use only MGs or Main gun.

Being able to order air support to stay in a area even if they dont spot anything right away.

Returning ammo to vehicles. The amount of times I misclick on ammo the unit doesnt need drives me nuts. Allow us to return the 2k 7.62 my rifle squad took when I need 5.56.

Remanning guns after they are abandoned. We can re-crew vehicles but not ATGs?!

Fix breaching. If you breach a building with a wall the unit likes to run all the way around to the front door when there is a massive hole. Also along those lines, dont force the breachers to move after the breach. I want the wall down so my tank/afv can shoot. Not so the infantry runs through in enemy ambush.

Most of the issues you mention can be done. You need to play a lot and experiment. You can't reman a gun because the battle drill says destroy the gun hypothetically. Everybody has his pet theory and this is mine. Breaching three different methods the one in the manual is the most reliable one. Tank using MG is targeting light. Line direct area fire you need the full battery each with his own fire zone. Target light with mortars you get something like harass in direct fire mode. 

[Brille]

4 hours ago, Silentkilarz said:

Ability of selecting what weapons to target briefly with. IE ordering a tank to use only MGs or Main gun.

There is a work around though. Give your tank a "target light" command in the position you want suppressed.

Then set a pause time you see fit (lets say 30 seconds) and set another waypoint slightly near or under your unit with a "face" command.

The face command will negate any target or cover arc order, so you simply just have a "target briefly" with only it's MG.

5 hours ago, Silentkilarz said:

Also along those lines, dont force the breachers to move after the breach. I want the wall down so my tank/afv can shoot. Not so the infantry runs through in enemy ambush.

Also a slight workaround but sometimes a bit unreliable: Instead of placing the breach order through the wall or the hedge,place it alongside.

This way the soldiers will blast a tile in front of them and then retreat alongside the hedge where they are in Cover/concealment again.

If there are more wall or hedge lines or other obstacles (e.g.houses) in between one tile, it can happen that something else will be blown up instead of the desired Wall/hedge. So it is a bit tricky Sometimes.

[Erwin]

I find what works well is to order a BLAST plus an immediate FAST move back the way the breaching team entered.  The explosion creates smoke and shock that gives the breach team a few seconds before they would be targeted by any enemy. 

[Anthony P.]

Typically you can breach a wall without going through the breach by keeping the breach waypoint on the same side as the one you're breaching from.

[Erwin]

9 hours ago, Anthony P. said:

Typically you can breach a wall without going through the breach by keeping the breach waypoint on the same side as the one you're breaching from.

That will depend on the orientation of the wall on the map.  The risk is that the unit will use up a charge and NOT breach the desired wall.  It can work, but...

[RMM]

On 12/18/2023 at 8:19 PM, Silentkilarz said:

Fix breaching. ... don't force the breachers to move after the breach. I want the wall down so my tank/AFV can shoot. Not so the infantry runs through, into an enemy ambush.

Oh amen!!

[RMM]

On 12/19/2023 at 8:36 AM, Erwin said:

I find what works well is to order a BLAST plus an immediate FAST move back the way the breaching team entered.  The explosion creates smoke and shock that gives the breach team a few seconds before they would be targeted by any enemy. 

Yes, I have seen this work, but it's still unnerving to have them run in, and it's completely unnecessary. Just blow a hole in the wall!

[Silentkilarz]

On 12/19/2023 at 12:06 AM, chuckdyke said:

Most of the issues you mention can be done. You need to play a lot and experiment. You can't reman a gun because the battle drill says destroy the gun hypothetically. Everybody has his pet theory and this is mine. Breaching three different methods the one in the manual is the most reliable one. Tank using MG is targeting light. Line direct area fire you need the full battery each with his own fire zone. Target light with mortars you get something like harass in direct fire mode. 

I have over 10k hours across the titles and have been playing since CMBO released on a demo disk in 2000. Yes there is workarounds. The point I'm trying to make is to make the game less convoluted and decrease the amount of workarounds. Its really a win-win. Less micro for people but also allows those that want more micro to do so.

Adding a target briefly light command makes it simpler for players. IE I have tank in overwatch and infantry team stacked nearby. If I have a target light brief command, I wont have to add pause orders to the infantry and I wont have the risk of a the tank firing a HE and killing the team. The team wont be stuck out in the open either. Shoot the .50cal for 15 secs while the team moves in.

Abandoned makes it seem like you can re-mount the gun, either BFC needs to change the text or let us use the gun after the crew stops crapping their pants.

If I have mortars on a ridge overlooking a position with line of sight the crew should be able to drop the rounds on a line instead of manually moving the target spot over.

Just some QoL changes.

[Silentkilarz]

On 12/19/2023 at 9:23 AM, Anthony P. said:

Typically you can breach a wall without going through the breach by keeping the breach waypoint on the same side as the one you're breaching from.

Correct, but its not guaranteed, many of times I've tried that and watch the demo charge blow a hole into the bocage across the street.

[Silentkilarz]

On 12/19/2023 at 8:36 AM, Erwin said:

I find what works well is to order a BLAST plus an immediate FAST move back the way the breaching team entered.  The explosion creates smoke and shock that gives the breach team a few seconds before they would be targeted by any enemy. 

Yeah, I'm thinking more along the lines of timed charge breaches. Send the team in, plant the charge and run back to cover. It really makes no sense for the unit to lay down, explode the charge and run into the hole. of course that its a valid tactic to use but it would be nice to have a choice.

[A Canadian Cat]

On 12/18/2023 at 9:19 PM, Silentkilarz said:

Remanning guns after they are abandoned

The act of abandoning the gun is as it says - they are leaving it behind forever - so they disable it as per thier orders.

They are not just taking cover temporary. They are abandoning the gun.

Now it would be nice to temporarily leave the gun to seek better cover and then return. However that would be something other than abandonment.

 

[Silentkilarz]

5 minutes ago, IanL said:

The act of abandoning the gun is as it says - they are leaving it behind forever - so they disable it as per thier orders.

They are not just taking cover temporary. They are abandoning the gun.

Now it would be nice to temporarily leave the gun to seek better cover and then return. However that would be something other than abandonment.

 

Imo it should say destroyed if that is what the crew is doing, not abandon. To me abandon makes it seem like you can come back. If you use "detroyed by crew" that makes more sense.

Ok, then add a "dismounted" option like vehicles have. You can recrew vehicles sometimes, you should also be able to do with field guns imo.

Were on the same page here I'm just not as eloquent with getting my point across xD

Edited December 20, 2023 by Silentkilarz

[RMM]

The arguement that this simulates the crew abandoning the ordinance in an orderly fashion (ie. having the presence of mind to destroy it while under fire of a level that is forcing them away from it in the first place) doesn't really make sense; it's at odds with what's actually happening - in the game, that act of 'abandonment' is one of the crew breaking and, essentially running away, being driven off by enemy fire. So, it doesn't stand to reason to then ascribe a willful and calculated action as their last act before completely breaking and running away! Abandonment is a deliberate act, but that's not what's happening in the game, so @Silentkilarz is right. This one of the rare, truly dumb facets of the current engine that takes away from reality and leaves the game wanting.

[PEB14]

11 hours ago, RMM said:

The arguement that this simulates the crew abandoning the ordinance in an orderly fashion (ie. having the presence of mind to destroy it while under fire of a level that is forcing them away from it in the first place) doesn't really make sense; it's at odds with what's actually happening - in the game, that act of 'abandonment' is one of the crew breaking and, essentially running away, being driven off by enemy fire. So, it doesn't stand to reason to then ascribe a willful and calculated action as their last act before completely breaking and running away! Abandonment is a deliberate act, but that's not what's happening in the game, so @Silentkilarz is right. This one of the rare, truly dumb facets of the current engine that takes away from reality and leaves the game wanting.

I also don't get the point why, an AFV can be recrewed and a gun cannot. Honestly, based on my (WW2) readings, the opposite would make more sense: while I have seen occasions on which an abandoned AT gun was recrewed and manned by the same crew (seeking temporary cover during an artillery bombing, by example), or even by other (friendly) troops, I have never seen any report of a tank being abandoned under enemy fire and then recrewed within the timeframe covered by a CM battle…

My humble opinion is, a tank crew abandoning its vehicle should be broken and stay so until the end of the game. That would avoid the temptation to use these highly trained specialist soldiers as cannon fodder…

[A Canadian Cat]

7 hours ago, PEB14 said:

I also don't get the point why, an AFV can be recrewed and a gun cannot. Honestly, based on my (WW2) readings, the opposite would make more sense: while I have seen occasions on which an abandoned AT gun was recrewed and manned by the same crew (seeking temporary cover during an artillery bombing, by example),

Because that is not something that CM simulates. It is an often asked for feature for sure.

 

7 hours ago, PEB14 said:

I have never seen any report of a tank being abandoned under enemy fire and then recrewed within the timeframe covered by a CM battle…

Again that's not what re-crewing simulates. It is quite common for a TC and or some crew to disembark and scout an area. That's what CM is simulating.
 

7 hours ago, PEB14 said:

a tank crew abandoning its vehicle should be broken and stay so until the end of the game

Well one forced to by taking casualties and getting hammered often is. Over the versions the condition of disembarked crew has been downgraded and they are no longer as willing to fight as they once were.