Sven Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 I just had a Panther take out an invisible tank. It fired on a T-34 it had eyes on, but the round struck another tank beside the first one. How is it possible for the gunner to NOT see that tank? It then reloaded and took out the first one, but the "invisible" tank still isn't seen. Just the smoke coming out of it. It turned out to be a very good minute for me, but it's annoying anyway. It's been mentioned in so many threads, but LOS is screwed up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bufo Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 This is a very good example of the flawed spotting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freyberg Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Sven said: I just had a Panther take out an invisible tank. It fired on a T-34 it had eyes on, but the round struck another tank beside the first one. How is it possible for the gunner to NOT see that tank? It then reloaded and took out the first one, but the "invisible" tank still isn't seen. Just the smoke coming out of it. It turned out to be a very good minute for me, but it's annoying anyway. It's been mentioned in so many threads, but LOS is screwed up. Can you provide a screen shot...? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Freyberg said: Can you provide a screen shot...? I filmed the playback. Sorry for the lack of quality:https://photos.app.goo.gl/et9TJvLcGN7Vt5bt5 Edited July 8, 2020 by Sven 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 You playing with trees toggled off? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 2 minutes ago, George MC said: You playing with trees toggled off? I turned them on all the way when filming that clip, but I usually use the middle setting. Why? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 The clip does not show any tree foliage hence why I asked. Previous issues with spotting often occur as player has toggled off the trees. But it s pretty poor video quality so not really sure what is going on TBH. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 2 minutes ago, George MC said: The clip does not show any tree foliage hence why I asked. Previous issues with spotting often occur as player has toggled off the trees. But it s pretty poor video quality so not really sure what is going on TBH. Trees off or on doesn't affect gameplay so what difference does it make? Anyway. You can see the direction from where the shot came on the picture below. I understand that the front of the tank might be blocked by a tree, but the gunner should still be able to see the invisible tank.https://photos.app.goo.gl/rvCeb1R9H9AKtkVR6 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 There's an element of chance to spotting. It's perfectly possible to have LOS to two tanks and only spot one of them. Then later lose sight of that one and spot the other, etc. Also, it can be because there is foliage blocking the LOS to the second tank. It's not really clear from your video, because we only see the receiving end. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 3 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said: There's an element of chance to spotting. It's perfectly possible to have LOS to two tanks and only spot one of them. Then later lose sight of that one and spot the other, etc. Also, it can be because there is foliage blocking the LOS to the second tank. It's not really clear from your video, because we only see the receiving end. I find it highly unlikely that a gunner can't see - not even after destroying it, while still seeing the tank behind - a tank that was in a straight line in front of the main gun. (I do understand, however, that the calculations in the game probably is to blame. It just felt so very unrealistic.) Or maybe the wind caught the AP-shell and blew it a little to the side, curving the shot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 9 minutes ago, Sven said: (I do understand, however, that the calculations in the game probably is to blame. It just felt so very unrealistic.) I agree with you. Just trying to help mentioning a couple of the things that can cause this to happen. Another thing is that the unseen tank seems to be in a ditch - possibly giving it a higher chance to remain unseen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 8 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said: I agree with you. Just trying to help mentioning a couple of the things that can cause this to happen. Another thing is that the unseen tank seems to be in a ditch - possibly giving it a higher chance to remain unseen. You're right. It'll be interesting to see the map in the end, as soon as I've lost this one (too) to my slightly better friend.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snarre Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) well if first tank is on ditch and some where betveen your panther and first t 34 is bush , long grash etc etc . It can block ling of sine but because 2 nd t 34 is up on ditch , it is more easy to spot. thats why it is more easy to tell if we could see hole picture and from panther side. Edited July 8, 2020 by snarre 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Not that it helps, but there is a spotted icon for the tank you label as "invisible". So, if you've selected the Panther, that front tank is KNOWN to the Panther, it just doesn't have enough information to solidly ID it. (CMBO had generic tanks that would be used for this type of thing: you'd see a blocky tank instead of a missing tank with an icon.) As well, the way LOS works with foliage is a bit spotty. There's some fuzzy LOS to take into account breezes and openings. So, with foliage, what you see (on your screen) is NOT what you get (with LOS calculations). It is frustrating, but like many aspects of any game, without that simplification there would be too much of a burden to let the game be playable. Not excusing it, just explaining it. A final note: LOS uses spotting cycles. At certain intervals (with some random elements and with weight given to optics, field of view, experience, suppression, etc.), and ONLY at that moment, does a unit check for LOS. An interval of 8-15 seconds "feels" about right from my experience with the game. Meaning, if that Panther waited longer, it may eventually get a solid LOS to the tank marked with the spotting icon. (All the above is based on "Iron" difficulty. It is the only level I use. It allows the player to know what each selected unit sees and knows about. I find Iron is much more conducive to good Situational Awareness than the other difficulty levels.) 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bufo Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) 17 minutes ago, c3k said: Not that it helps, but there is a spotted icon for the tank you label as "invisible". That's not a spotted icon. Its the "somebody told me around here should be a tank but I cannot see it" icon. It is clearly invisible to the gunner at this point. Edited July 8, 2020 by Bufo 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StieliAlpha Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sven said: I find it highly unlikely that a gunner can't see - not even after destroying it, while still seeing the tank behind - a tank that was in a straight line in front of the main gun. I don’t see much of a problem here. Only recently, I killed a Sherman behind a hedgerow, which my guys could not spot. I only had an „assumed sighting“ and fired a few rounds at the place. Most of them for no effect, but one shot obviously went through the bushes at the right spot. I only noticed the kill, when the smoke plume rose. On the other hand, I lost many tanks to foes, which my guys never noticed until the shell impacted. Edited July 8, 2020 by StieliAlpha 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bufo Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, StieliAlpha said: I don’t see much of a problem here. I was waiting for the "nothing wrong here this game is perfect you are stupid" replays. You think there is nothing wrong with not seeing something that is directly in front of something else that you can see? The situation you described is a totally different situation. The problem is not that he could hit an invisible unit. Edited July 8, 2020 by Bufo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StieliAlpha Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 10 minutes ago, Bufo said: I was waiting for the "nothing wrong here this game is perfect you are stupid" replays. You think there is nothing wrong with not seeing something that is directly in front of something else that you can see? The situation you described is a totally different situation. The problem is not that he could hit an invisible unit. Smart reply. Watch this and keep your eye on the white ball: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bufo Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 29 minutes ago, StieliAlpha said: Watch this and keep your eye on the white ball: There are no white balls. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Very clever psych expt. Re shooting invisible enemies... Many times I see a unit firing at something I cannot see and don't know what it is. So, the AI probably does a better job of seeing (and firing) at enemies than human players. It's similar to the phenomenon when an enemy shoots your tank (or vice versa) through a pixel-wide gap in dense woods that the player cannot possibly see by "eyeballing". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerner Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Dang, 12 passes the first time I tried the test, 14 the second. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freyberg Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 There's foliage in the way that will block LOS but not a shell... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 10 minutes ago, Freyberg said: There's foliage in the way that will block LOS but not a shell... But it can still see the tank right behind it, even after the closest one has been knocked out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bufo Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Sven said: But it can still see the tank right behind it, even after the closest one has been knocked out. I really don't get why is this so hard to understand. Maybe a sketch for visualization would help 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 6 hours ago, Bufo said: That's not a spotted icon. Its the "somebody told me around here should be a tank but I cannot see it" icon. It is clearly invisible to the gunner at this point. No. If the Panther is selected (not sure from the video or the difficulty level) any spotted icon like that is what that unit is aware of but does not have positive confirmation. The OP's video does not make it clear. But, regardless, you cannot make the statement that "it is clearly invisible to the gunner at this point". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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