Med-evacs + Detailed Injuries.

[silent_crescendo]

Just had a thought about a cool addition that would add more depth to the game than the current 'buddy aid' system. (I understand this may never make it into the game. I just thought it would be nice to get a discussion going) 

A more immersive injury system with details specifying the specific injury and to what part of the body would be a nice addition and having dedicated medics in the squad use supplies to treat them. Depending on the injury, they may not be able to carry on fighting and would need to be either left on the battlefield or carried/transported away. 

A medical evacuation system would be nice, being able to call in a helicopter/vehicle via radio (a bit like the artillery) to an area and having troops carry the wounded onboard. 

[A Canadian Cat]

Steve has said in the past he does not want CM to turn in to CM Med Evac or CM Military Police - hence the abstraction of POWs and the evacuation of injured. I wonder if the department of defence contracts will change that at all.

[MikeyD]

The fly in the ointment to that is the definition of that term 'away'. If you animate soldiers being carried off to the 'friendly' side of the map things get complicated, especially if your opponent has maneuvered to your rear. Then you'd be walking into the teeth of the enemy. I recall CMx1 game engine had captured prisoners walking to the enemy's map edge. Sometimes they'd walk right back to their own unit!

One thing the current casualty model does is take an extra man out of the action to perform 'buddy aid', briefly reducing your unit's firepower. For awhile, a couple decades ago, the trend was to design weapons that only maimed instead of killed. Because a dead soldier doesn't tie up logistics and resources.

[Frenchy56]

26 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

For awhile, a couple decades ago, the trend was to design weapons that only maimed instead of killed. Because a dead soldier doesn't tie up logistics and resources.

Do you have any proof of this? Weapons have never been designed to maim, they only do so because they've failed to kill. "Weapons" that are designed to maim are torture devices.

Anyway, I believe wounds in this game do not need to be detailed further than "this wounded man can fight on" and "this wounded man cannot fight on and must be evacuated" or "this man is dead". Because in the end that is all that matters to a commander.

Edited August 14, 2019 by Frenchy56

[Boche]

Wasnt one of the points of adopting 5.56 was that it was less lethal than 7.62?

[Frenchy56]

36 minutes ago, Boche said:

Wasnt one of the points of adopting 5.56 was that it was less lethal than 7.62?

I often hear even people in the Army repeat this.

5.56 was for standardization in NATO (really it's just the US that adopted 5.56 and NATO followed suit, among them some very angry Brits who had spent a decade designing an intermediate cartridge and a rifle to fire it from scratch).

Its advantages over 7.62 were that a grunt could hump more ammunition for the same weight. This is definitely more important to an infantryman than making sure you're wounding your enemy, who might be left behind anyway, and the 7.62 round's power was judged too excessive due to its effective range usually exceeding today's usual combat ranges, especially since these days where urban combat is much more common, and is an integral part of combat training today, unlike during WW2 for example where people just tossed grenades and went in guns blazing with rifles and SMG's.

 

In fact, the first 5.56 rounds fired in Vietnam, the M193 Ball, created wounds that were judged as too gruesome by the US military. They tumbled inside the target's body and made gory exit wounds. It was replaced by the Belgian SS109, the M855 in the US.

Edited August 14, 2019 by Frenchy56

[MikeyD]

There's a host of weapons like that. Flechette rifle rounds (that got outlawed by international convention), anti-personnel mines only powerful enough to blow off a hand of a foot, 'bouncing betty' mines that popped up to knee height before detonating, air-dispersed cluster munition mini-bomblets (also outlawed by international convention). We're talking Vietnam era or before, though Russia continued the trend longer. In Afghanistan they were air dropping toys and Koran books with just enough explosives to blow off fingers.

Edited August 14, 2019 by MikeyD

[Frenchy56]

Fair enough. These kinda weapons had skimmed my mind for a second there. Flechette rounds and bouncing betties will kill you dead unless you're wearing proper body armor.

Edited August 14, 2019 by Frenchy56

[Erwin]

2 hours ago, MikeyD said:

I recall CMx1 game engine had captured prisoners walking to the enemy's map edge. Sometimes they'd walk right back to their own unit!

Am pretty sure one could order POW's to go anywhere.  One often needed to escort them cos if they ran into an active member of their side they could revert to enemy status - albeit with no weapons.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

That's my recollection too.....Handy to have some around if you suspect the presence of minefields. 

[nik mond]

On 8/14/2019 at 2:21 PM, MikeyD said:

There's a host of weapons like that. Flechette rifle rounds (that got outlawed by international convention), anti-personnel mines only powerful enough to blow off a hand of a foot, 'bouncing betty' mines that popped up to knee height before detonating, air-dispersed cluster munition mini-bomblets (also outlawed by international convention). We're talking Vietnam era or before, though Russia continued the trend longer. In Afghanistan they were air dropping toys and Koran books with just enough explosives to blow off fingers.

The US still has a stockpile of M14 toe poppers for use in Korea. That's about the only weapon left designed strictly for maiming. The problem is the geneva Convention obligates those who signed on to treat the enemy injured same as their own. So guess who's logistics get tied up.

[MikeyD]

I recall there was push-back from the US on international air-dispersed mine prohibition specifically citing Korea as the reason. We also provide a a sht-ton of air-dispersed munitions to Israel.

[Sequoia]

In relation to what Frenchy said, it's been over 35 years since I left the Army but there were a lot of B.S. legends that went around the barracks including the one about the 5.56 only being meant to main. Another one was after a chemical attack when an all clear was given, the lowest ranking man would have to remove his gas mask first to confirm it was indeed all clear.

[sburke]

1 hour ago, Sequoia said:

 the lowest ranking man would have to remove his gas mask first to confirm it was indeed all clear.

I thought that was what Lts were for.   

[Mord]

Punji pits are another good example of wounding more than killing guys. Nasty and tie up a couple soldiers depending on how bad the wound.

 

Mord.