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Passage At Wilcox SOP


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Was wondering about the use of the two Recon teams in this scenario.  When I played the demo my instinct was to leave the recon teams where they were first placed and move the inf through them into assault positions - so the recon teams would not be involved in any assault.  As am restarting in the full game am wondering how other players used the recon.  eg:  Did you have the same SOP for recon, or did you move the inf to take their place so that the recon teams could move ahead to spot enemy positions?

Am not sure if, in the game, recon has any special attributes that would make them more useful in a forward observation role, or if they would join the inf in a combat role (since all units are ready for the assault at the start of the scenario).  Or, is it more appropriate to leave recon teams in the rear during the assault - perhaps to aid WIA etc?

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Jesus....mate, I can give it a go in French and Italian if that'll help some.

This thread started with a question about employment of reconnaissance elements and has then morphed into discussions about XOs and who does what plus a plea for accurate information. Here is wha

Others have already commented generally on the differences, or the typical roles. You'll see the recurring theme: XOs, Platoon Sergeants (or Platoon Warrant Officers depending on the nation) tend to h

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That is RL SOP?

I only ask as after reading books like "Not a Good Day to Die" it seemed as if Recon assets were not expected to fight other than in their own defense.  Altho' in the book, the recon assets were SF, so perhaps that's different?

Edited by Erwin
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1 minute ago, Combatintman said:

The clue's in their job description.

My question is based that we have been told from early days of CM by BF that in CM, the "recon" is done...  the enemy is immediately ahead and the troops are now about to assault.  So, in RL would there be a recon role at the start of this scenario, other than observe from where their set up position is?  (Is it RL SOP to send Recon into a potential assault situation?)

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You’re assuming the enemy is static when you assault. Recon continues to be useful in identifying enemy positions and assets as they get shifted around. Just not using recon units would be a waste. They can move to the flanks, do more recon, etc. 

Edited by sid_burn
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41 minutes ago, Erwin said:

My question is based that we have been told from early days of CM by BF that in CM, the "recon" is done...  the enemy is immediately ahead and the troops are now about to assault.  So, in RL would there be a recon role at the start of this scenario, other than observe from where their set up position is?  (Is it RL SOP to send Recon into a potential assault situation?)

The essence of warfare is friction. You're the commander so you want to reduce friction so go and look at the map, work out where you want to look to support your scheme of manoeuvre and assign assets accordingly. Read my planning tutorial or Bil Hardenberger's blog or any of his AARs.

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By the recon being done before the battle simply means you know the general location of the enemy force. Recon teams as small and can move around ahead and locate the DETAIL of the enemy positions, many times preventing a whole squad from walking into a buzz saw, or giving you a better idea of dispositions so that you can plan where you want to go.

When I don't have actual recon teams, I usually break out scout teams from squads to do the same thing. Better for 2 or 3 guys to find the bad guys the hard way than a squad or platoon.

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22 hours ago, sid_burn said:

 not using recon units would be a waste. They can move to the flanks, do more recon, etc

That's the answer I was hoping to get so long as it reflects RL usage (as opposed as what one can do in a game)

When I play CM2 I try my best to have units act using SOP's from RL. For example, I try to avoid using XO's and 2IC's as medics or recon units - but keep them relatively safe in a rear command area.  Also, am reluctant to load my guys with more than about 400 rounds per man in addition to AT rockets, Javelins etc. 

I probably read books from WW2 era that described how assault troops would move through the recon screen - the implication being that once an assault starts, recon units stay back - perhaps to be used as a reserve.

Thanks for the responses.  

 

Edited by Erwin
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22 minutes ago, Erwin said:

 

When I play CM2 I try my best to have units act using SOP's from RL... For example, I try to avoid using XO's and 2IC's as medics or recon units - but keep them relatively safe in a rear command area....

 

 

Y I K E S.

I'm not exactly sure you know what that acronym means. XOs are usually tasked with dealing with casualty clearance and policing up straggling units. Also, how is an Executive Officer going to exert command or aid his CO if he is 'safe in the rear.' "Hey Joe, can you take x platoon (+) and help ease burden of command?" "Tosh sah, I'll be sitting here waiting in the wings in case you buy the farm."

For someone who wants to use real standard operating procedures, you show a remarkable aversion to them. 

Edited by Rinaldi
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23 minutes ago, Erwin said:

When I play CM2 I try my best to have units act using SOP's from RL. For example, I try to avoid using XO's and 2IC's as medics or recon units - but keep them relatively safe in a rear command area.  Also, am reluctant to load my guys with more than about 400 rounds per man in addition to AT rockets, Javelins etc. 

 

Yeah you seem to have a pretty good understanding of modern tactics and SOP. But maybe my fellow army vets @Rinaldi or @IICptMillerII want to chime in with their own experiences 

edit:

yikes, looks like rinaldi disagrees, oh well, different opinions and whatnot

Edited by sid_burn
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2 minutes ago, Rinaldi said:

Y I K E S.

I'm not exactly sure you know what that acronym means. XOs are usually tasked with dealing with casualty clearance and policing up straggling units. Also, how is an Executive Officer going to exert command or aid his CO if he is 'safe in the rear.'

For someone who wants to use real life tactics, you show a remarkable aversion to them. 

maybe hes just used to seeing his XOs do nothing of the above. I know im not. 

Edited by Boche
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5 hours ago, sid_burn said:

 

CA2E27C8-F9DD-4FB8-B38F-E2E671E43450.jpeg

We had something similar when I was overseas with the Marines.

We, the unwilling;

Led by the unqualified;

Doing the unnecessary for the ungrateful;

Have been doing so much for so long with so little;

Can do anything forever with nothing!

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16 hours ago, Rinaldi said:

or someone who wants to use real standard operating procedures, you show a remarkable aversion to them. 

You misunderstand.  Have no aversions to anything that is done in RL.  I simply am not familiar with current SOP's for these teams' roles and am trying to (admittedly very belatedly) trying to learn them so I can use these teams in as realistic as possible manner in the CM2 game.

All am doing is seeking accurate info.

My understanding was that the Co HQ the one who needs to have eyes on the attack so he can issue appropriate orders, and is therefore put in more danger.  My assumption was that the XO has to stay relatively safe back at a command HQ location so he is available to take over if the Co HQ goes down.  You are saying that this is not correct?

So, what are the roles for the XO and 2IC?  Medics?  FO?  Recon?  Reserve for assault force?   Anything else?  (Are the US XO and UK 2IC roles different?)  Am simply looking for clarification.  

******************

More questions:

The Passage To Wilcox scenario is well designed as it allows a generous amount of time to accomplish objectives using careful tactics so as to minimize friendly losses.  It also features an interesting mix of units.  In particular I like that the units are a mix of Crack, Veteran and Regular experience units. This is rare for a CM2 scenario in my experience and have often remarked at how many CM2 games feature cookie cutter formations where every similar unit has identical experience etc.

If you are a platoon or Co CO:

1)  When deciding which units of a platoon do what, would one lead with the Crack units and have the lesser experienced troops follow as support?  Or, send in the lesser experienced units first to assault and keep the Crack units back in reserve to reinforce a successful assault?  

2)  In equipping one's inf units from their Bradleys, what considerations determine who gets what?  My thinking has been that units that are expected to assault buildings do not want to be weighed down by Javelins. So, the assault units would be given an extra 1K rounds plus extra 40mm grenades plus extra AT4's for use vs buildings, but no Javelins.  The Javelins would be given to only one (or at max) two of the platoon's squads who would be used in more of a supporting/overwatch role.

3)  In this case, would the Crack units be given the Javelins - since one wants those to function at optimal capability?  Or, would one give the Javelins to the Regular chaps, so they can hang back and be used in a support role rather than as assault units, while the more highly experienced units make the assault?  

Thanks again - your tactical recommendations are very useful.

Edited by Erwin
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30 minutes ago, Erwin said:

If you are a platoon or Co CO:

1)  When deciding which units of a platoon do what, would one lead with the Crack units and have the lesser experienced troops follow as support?  Or, send in the lesser experienced units first to assault and keep the Crack units back in reserve to reinforce a successful assault?  

It's your plan. Depending on the situation, either is good. Your reserve is the part of your force that you will never need to call on if everything goes according to your plan. Your support is not your reserve. Maybe, I'm not fully appreciating your use of terminology but, nonetheless, as CO you decide the composition of the various elements needed to fulfill your plan.

46 minutes ago, Erwin said:

2)  In equipping one's inf units from their Bradleys, what considerations determine who gets what?  My thinking has been that units that are expected to assault buildings do not want to be weighed down by Javelins. So, the assault units would be given an extra 1K rounds plus extra 40mm grenades plus extra AT4's for use vs buildings, but no Javelins.  The Javelins would be given to only one (or at max) two of the platoon's squads who would be used in more of a supporting/overwatch role

Don't make the mistake of loading your troops for imaginary situations. Always be prepared does not mean everyone is a pack mule. Six spare clips and one in the weapon suffices. And, *sometimes* it doesn't. Again, is there a need to supplement with AT/LAW? With Javelin?  What's your objective? What does your plan entail? From your previous posts, you're quite willing to ignore norms by "loading up" as a matter of pre-battle prep. You've decided that the movement penalty incurred is acceptable. So, why concern yourself with points #1 and #3 if you are willing to ignore standard load outs?

46 minutes ago, Erwin said:

3)  In this case, would the Crack units be given the Javelins - since one wants those to function at optimal capability?  Or, would one give the Javelins to the Regular chaps, so they can hang back and be used in a support role rather than as assault units, while the more highly experienced units make the assault?  

Again, what do you need them to be? Sometimes yes and other times no. It's not that complicated and entirely dependent on your plan and the elements needed to undertake your plan. What contingencies are you trying to mitigate?

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2 hours ago, Howler said:

Don't make the mistake of loading your troops for imaginary situations. Always be prepared does not mean everyone is a pack mule. Six spare clips and one in the weapon suffices. And, *sometimes* it doesn't. Again, is there a need to supplement with AT/LAW? With Javelin? 

Yeah I rarely up ammo much other than deciding to grab that Jav.  Sometime I grab that just for the optical capability but most times I don't want to be hauling around unless I have a specific role for it.  In Circle the Wagons however I found myself grabbing as much ammo as I could.  The situation is I need to establish a perimeter and hold off the enemy.  I am not expecting to move much and I can't afford to run low on ammo.  Very specific requirements and therefore a specific response.

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2 hours ago, Howler said:

From your previous posts, you're quite willing to ignore norms by "loading up" as a matter of pre-battle prep.

Howler: If you actually read my other posts in this subjects you would know that you are mistaking me for someone else because I NEVER load up in that way.

I have been questioning the fact that others do load up what I consider to be an unreasonably heavy amount of ammo and have been trying to ascertain what is a reasonable combat load.  That appears to be about 400 rounds per man.  But, how many other weapons would a squad reasonably be able to carry without being weighed down?

My personal SOP is to use the most experience units for the hardest tasks.  However, in prior eras, it was common to use the lower experienced troops first and then only commit the best troops for the "breakthrough" when the enemy was wavering.   Was simply asking if that SOP still makes sense in modern era (WW2 to now) combat of if its advisable these days to use the best guys upfront and have the less experienced guys support or guard flanks etc.

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Splinty said:

In the US Army mechanized infantry world, XO's generally handle policing up broken down and battle damaged vehicles, along with arraigning for fuel and ammo resupply. It's the First Sergeant and the senior company medic who deal in casualties and evac. 

so he is a tow truck driver?  :P 

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1 hour ago, Erwin said:

Howler: If you actually read my other posts in this subjects you would know that you are mistaking me for someone else because I NEVER load up in that way. 

My apologies.

1 hour ago, Erwin said:

I have been questioning the fact that others do load up what I consider to be an unreasonably heavy amount of ammo and have been trying to ascertain what is a reasonable combat load.  That appears to be about 400 rounds per man.  But, how many other weapons would a squad reasonably be able to carry without being weighed down?

Where did you get 400 rd/man for modern US troops? Standard is usually six 30 round mags plus one in the weapon.

 

Edited by Howler
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3 minutes ago, Howler said:

My apologies.

Where did you get 400 rd/man for modern US troops? Standard is usually six 30 round mags plus one in the weapon.

 

True, but that's SOP. In Iraq we normally carried as much ammo as we had pouches to put our mags in. For me as a Squad leader that was around 400 rounds and eight 40mm for my M203.

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