How can I prevent infantry running away?

[Michael Emrys]

8 hours ago, General Liederkranz said:

I like that attacks can fail in the face of enemy fire after only a couple of casualties, as the pixeltruppen are less eager to press on in the face of losses. And I like it when Green troops making a risky move under fire will go to ground and ditch my orders even without taking casualties.

Yes, those parts are good. The specific behavior of troops under fire should be dependent on the usual factors of experience and leadership, but in general, I feel that their first response should be going to ground and seeking better cover (by crawling) rather than panic driven flight.

Michael

[LUCASWILLEN05]

14 hours ago, exsonic01 said:

6 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

In fact, this goes back at least as far as the earliest days of sword and lance. As soon as infantry began to break and run, they were subject to slaughter. This is why a large part of the training of successful armies was to discipline the foot soldiers into holding their ranks. The side that broke first is the side that lost and most likely also the one that suffered the heaviest casualties.

Michael

Maybe the occasional individual may break and run. However If a squad were to be under very heavy, close range fire bugging out could be the best option particularly if cover is poor. This is why I want to know more about the circumstances exsonic01 observed. How close were the enemy? How much cover did his squad have? It may be that, if the enemy was quite close and/or their fire was heavy the squad leader sensibly decided to "bug out" Maybe that is what he actually observed.

[kraze]

BTW can't Battlefront add a few conditions for this into the patch? Shouldn't be hard.

What I mean is - if soldiers take positions in foxholes or trenches - then AI should ignore the retreat routine in the code when bombarded. That will make it perfect since otherwise the behavior of bugging the hell out when under artillery fire is superb.

[Glubokii Boy]

The risk of ending their lives with a friendly bullet in the back ought to have been a decent motivator for holding on to their possitions as best they could also. 

I don't know how common this was but atleast german and russian ww2 soldiers had this to considder i think.

[John Kettler]

exsonic01,

While I have no answer to offer directly to your question, you may find this of interest. In 2010 some fundamental hormone research was done which discovered that in flight-or-fight situations, the body creates large amounts of cortisol which mobilizes the body to escaper danger. This is simply how we are as people. The outpouring of cortisol overrides the testosterone so tied to competition, dominance and aggression.

Stress Hormone Blocks Testosterone's Effects, Study Shows

https://news.utexas.edu/2010/09/27/stress-hormone-blocks-testosterones-effects-study-shows

Regards,

John Kettler

[snarre]

problem is on "rattled" status, this status hit too fast to troops or it is too effective, pixel troops start to run away all ready on that point.

[A Canadian Cat]

Don't forget guys that shaken and panicked troops are the ones breaking and running. The ones in good order are withdrawing. You are not the only commander on the battlefield. The TacAI plays the role of the squad leader and team leaders at least part of the time. They have the initiative to pull back to preserve their men.

I'm just reminding everyone that not all of the pulling back is panicked routing. Clearly there is plenty of room to discuss when that should and should not be happening and how well they make their choices.

[Holman]

Since 4.0, there's a dramatic difference in the behavior of troops under stress.

In the past a full squad in cover would cower when they took a couple of casualties; now they stand and run into the open (often towards the enemy, which hardly seems like pulling back).  I've even seen units break cover and run away because another team 50 meters away took casualties.

I really want BTS to acknowledge this difference.  If it's unintended, I can wait patiently for a fix.  If it's the new normal, we should know that too, although it has repercussions for the whole library of scenarios.

 

[Pericles]

Judging from this thread, there is near universal opinion that the AI's current cut-and-run into the open behavior is crap and needs to be fixed. Emrys, Xorg, Rinaldi, Liderkranz, Kraze, and Holman all agree with this. The only one who has implied that it's not a problem is IanL. He seems to believe that the AI has always been like this and that it isn't the result of changes made in v.4. 

I can confirm that the irrational cut-and-run behavior is alive and well. Just returned to the game after not playing for a month. CMBN v.4. One of my squads was pinned down in and around a trench with contact with platoon leader maintained. The trench provided cover from an MG that was located at least 200 m away. But a couple of the men became casualties. And instead of crawling into the trench where they had cover, they ran away from the direction of the MG into an open field. 

[cool breeze]

Playing the first mission of the battle pack now, its one of those more fluid situations I was talking about, and here it seems to be working pretty great.  People are running away, but not immediately, and only after I am shooting the sort of explosive onslaught that would make me certainly run for it.  But on the other hand I'm not facing hardened defenses, nor am I using any heavy HE (yet).  My men are doing great, 3 are now yellow, one red, but everyone's been courageous.  I'm not saying we shouldn't try to get the running from prepared defenses too much fixed, but I don't think there is universal opinion that the current behavior is "crap", for one thing forum comments are not a good way to do a poll. 

I'm not even really against the new way they handle HE even when they are in cover.  One of my first experiences with the new behavior is when they bolted under a substantial artillery barrage while they were in a house defending, only to run maybe 50 yards through the open into another bigger building.  I was like "WHAT ARE YOU DOING YOUR IN A BUILDING IN A BARRAGE AND YOU LEAVE!!!?!!"  but they sprinted it hard and made it between salvos, and then the building they left collapsed behind them, and they were all OK. 

 

So, it needs some tweaking but I like the premise.  I think its realistic that they might notice that they seems to be at the center of a barrage that they wont survive, so they take what chance they have and move. 

I agree tweaking is in order but lets not throw out the baby with the bath water. 

Edited April 29, 2017 by cool breeze

[Erwin]

"...the building they left collapsed behind them, and they were all OK."  I recall in CM1 that troops would run out of a building if it was imminently about to collapse.  If there is a way to get the AI to do that, you would think it could be programmed to have troops stay in a safe place rather than rout out.

[General Melchid]

20 hours ago, Holman said:

Since 4.0, there's a dramatic difference in the behavior of troops under stress.

In the past a full squad in cover would cower when they took a couple of casualties; now they stand and run into the open (often towards the enemy, which hardly seems like pulling back).  I've even seen units break cover and run away because another team 50 meters away took casualties.

I really want BTS to acknowledge this difference.  If it's unintended, I can wait patiently for a fix.  If it's the new normal, we should know that too, although it has repercussions for the whole library of scenarios.

 

I'm not convinced all of these behaviours people are seeing are new; I'm still running 1.04 without the v4 upgrade. I have certainly had troops take a morale hit because a team was killed nearby as I have had armour get 'rattled' if 3/4 of the platoon is lost in a round.

From what folk are reporting It seems under arty there may be problem with them too willingly abandoning fortifications, but other then that I have a suspicion the rest is phantom.

[Holman]

32 minutes ago, General Melchid said:

I'm not convinced all of these behaviours people are seeing are new; I'm still running 1.04 without the v4 upgrade. I have certainly had troops take a morale hit because a team was killed nearby as I have had armour get 'rattled' if 3/4 of the platoon is lost in a round.

From what folk are reporting It seems under arty there may be problem with them too willingly abandoning fortifications, but other then that I have a suspicion the rest is phantom.

Have you tried the 4.0 engine?  Yes, those behaviors have always been there (I've played CM from the beginning), and they are appropriate under the right circumstances.  What's happening now is a much more pronounced tendency for infantry to break and leave cover much earlier.

[Ivanov]

18 hours ago, Pericles said:

Judging from this thread, there is near universal opinion that the AI's current cut-and-run into the open behavior is crap and needs to be fixed. Emrys, Xorg, Rinaldi, Liderkranz, Kraze, and Holman all agree with this. The only one who has implied that it's not a problem is IanL. He seems to believe that the AI has always been like this and that it isn't the result of changes made in v.4. 

I can confirm that under v.4 the infantry is running away like hell Often times this behaviour seems like a suicidal  flight rather than a rational shoot and scoot tactics.

[DougPhresh]

You can see this is almost any scenario with an attack against dug in defenders. You can just shoot them off position. In even Fortress Italy I'm losing maybe a handful of guys in scenarios that were previously very hard fought because I can just wait for the enemy to break and run under relatively light fire.

Edited April 30, 2017 by DougPhresh

[General Melchid]

Well seeing as the majority seem convinced there is a issue with morale; can we narrow it down some? Is it a problem only when under artillery fire or is it also occurring by direct fire? Is the effect there with small arms or is it just he-type weapons? Is it fortification-specific or is it happening in anywhere eg. forest's and houses.

[Oleksandr]

First of all always Split Teams - so that each squad is devided into few parts - if one element of a squad will run, another element may stay under your control. 

Always think where you are sending you infantry in? What do I mean by that? Try to keep your soldiers under cover, yet, if that is not possible look for landscape - hills and stuff. Sometimes it can be open but you always can find some hills for visual cover. That leads us to another important aspect - understanding of the trrain and general direction - meaning that you should always guess or better know from where those shots will be fired. 

Another important moment is to always keep your armomor a not too close to your soldiers, because if your tank or APC will be recked - explosion can affect your infantry. 

So keep the distance. 

After you did that you need to check on buildings you holding. If you picking a building always rememeber that it is important to pick a right building. Dont take those buildings which are facing enemy directly (first line). It is always better to keep your soldiers deep in the town - so that when the enemy comes with a support of an armor the angle will be not comfortable and your infantry will have a chance to give some damage to attacking side. 

Now another thing is important - while putting your soldiers into the building with few floors remember to split your squad! Some soldiers should go on the 3rd floor some on the 2nd some on the 1st. That will allow you to keep your soldiers effective even if an enemy will use nades or thermobaric weapons. Basically one element can get hit while nother element is keep on fighting. 

Avoid using roofs if possible. Roofs are good for observation when its safe but most of the time your soldiers will get recked pretty damn fast. 

So how would you place your soldiers in a 3 floor building? 

AT guys are going on a 2nd floor, while mg goes on a first floor, the guy with optics goes on 3rd. Yet, this can vary depending on what situation you are in. Sometimes its better to stay low untill enemy is close enough and then take the 3rd floor. 

Always remember that there should be other buildings infront of that one you taking. Unless its rural or Forest - the logic is simple - your soldiers are hiddent till the last moment - when they being spotted - it is already too late. 

Now remember that retreating is important - how would you retreat? First of all you taking away those guys who are at the top level - MG should leave the building last. 

How do you know when to retreat? 

When the fire on your infantry gets concentrated. 

Whats the difference between concentrated and chaotic? 

Concentrated is when your enemy shooting you from different directions and different weapon systems from the long range. That means that your position is now on your enemy's list and he knows what he is doing. Chaotic is when your enemy walks into the town and then suddenly starts to shoot you coz u killing him - it can be intense but if you did everything right enemy squad will leave its teeth on a ground. 

How do you survive an artillery strike? 

First of all maintain control over the situation - do not skip your turns - when you see first few shells going down u already should know that in 3-4 minutes your forces will be in a big trouble. You should take mesaured right away - first of all evac your heavy guns (MG's, AT systems, and so on). Why in that order? because they will take time to pack up.

How do you evac? 

Depends on what you have - if you have personal carriers you take use them, if you dont you seek for cover. Remember that building is your last resort - do not think that buildings will save your soldiers. It will simply minimize the damage. When planing you retreat turn look on what is surrounding you - ask yourself: is there a forest somewhere near by? is it safe to cross your feild? and mark for yourself one point - if arty is working on you that means that an enemy got clear eyes on you. 

Another important aspect is to keep your forces physically ready to move - do not advance with "FAST and Quick" on a long distances - there is an old military saying "you can go fast or you can go far" use it. 

If you will be careful, but in the same time dare, if you will know your enemy, if you will know yourself, if you will understand terrain, and if you will get an edge on buildings you might minimize your casualties. 

FREE HINT ON USING AT TEAMS: split two squads - find a shooting position to 1 rpg(bazooka whatever) team. Spot a target - put one of your RPG teams at position - make a turn (ur rpg team will shoot 2-3 times) then - after turn ends order your RPG to move away on a short distance and at the same time order another RPG team to take its place. Why? Because your enemy will see an RPG team - will aim and then its gone - your enemy will take away the aim - and in the same moment another RPG team will shoot it from the very same place. Repeat that untill your enemy's apc/tank/whatever is burining. Such little trics on micro level will help you to raise your effectivity and minimize your casualties. 

Remember those are core rules, while getting into more combat you will get your own tricks developed - and soon you will forget about - what its like to see your soldiers runing. But your enemy will run. Good luck! 

[Holman]

That's all very good advice, and it's great to see it presented together.

But I think the issue at hand isn't players not knowing these things.  It's that the threshold at which infantry run away (especially when temporarily cowering in place seemed more realistic and more likely to keep them alive) has been greatly lowered in Engine 4.0.

I really have the sense that the balance was just about right in earlier versions.  What was needed, if anything, was more situational behavior ("tank fright," for example, or better choice of routes when retreating), but it seemed to me that behavior seemed believable enough.

Right now it seems like units in cover run away in the exact same way that units in the open do.  I certainly get the sense that they expose themselves more often than before, and that's the especially unrealistic part.  (Cowering inside a building and crawling to cover inside seems much more believable that racing out the door into the street.)  I almost have the sense that the cowering and running-away behaviors have been swapped.

 

Edited April 30, 2017 by Holman

[Glubokii Boy]

1 hour ago, General Melchid said:

Well seeing as the majority seem convinced there is a issue with morale; can we narrow it down some? Is it a problem only when under artillery fire or is it also occurring by direct fire? Is the effect there with small arms or is it just he-type weapons? Is it fortification-specific or is it happening in anywhere eg. forest's and houses.

I don't think that this evasive behavior of the AI troops is something that is limited to defensive situations (be that in trenches or inside buildings or what ever).

A few weeks ago i mentioned in another thread that i felt that the attacking AI had an increased tendency to cancel their attack orders when they come under fire.

I had been working on a scenario (AI attack-scenario) for some time and playtested the AI plan multiple times under V.3. Everything worked fine. The AI did what i wanted and where succesful in its attack as long a i did not activly command the player side.

After upgrading to V.4 all this changed at ones. No changes were made to the scenario what so ever but now in V.4 the AI had serious difficulties with fullfilling their orders.

I noticed a significant increase in evasive behavior (sneaking) amongst the AI troops.

Granted these attack where not designed to simulate any skillfully lead attack (advancing over fairly open ground for example with limited coordination between the armour and infantry) but they worked in V.3 and not in V.4.

An increased reluctance amongs the AI troops to advance under fire might not be a bad thing though. I just thought that i would mention that this increased evasive behavior is not something that is limited to defensive possitions and HE.

 

[JoMac]

I accidentally stumbled upon this, so called, 'Black Sea' Thread (I only play WWII) when I read the Topic, and thought it's probably related to the v4 issue that many are having as a whole. 

Yes, this is, ofcourse, true for Meetngs or Attack/Defense...It doesn't matter.

Now, the problem is that a Scenario  (QB, designed Scenario, etc) is now taking about half the time to accomplish then it did pre v4 and in an unrealistic way...

So, picture this in v4; Troops have been dug in for Days, or just a few hours...Whatever....now a Mortar Battery is called down on the Defenders Company position, and your troops start to run to rear cover...Attacker uses the 'Rinse & Repeat' procedure (and inflicting many enemy casualties), and then finally moves his troops in for to take objectives for the win (might have to engage in some small arms here and there). 

Now, picture the above in v3; Troops have been Entrenched for Days, or just Dug in for a few hours...Whatever....now a Mortar Battery is called down on your Company position, but this time your troops are steadfast, and has only taken a few casualties with some suppression/Pinned/Shaken,etc, etc...The Attacker advances, but now his Infantry has Stalled engaging the Defenders in Small Arms at range...Several minutes later more Arty is called upon Defenders, and the combination (Arty & Small Arms) forces you to flee your Defensive position due to overall Suppression & Broken Moral effects...Enemy Troops finally move in to take position, albeit taking heavy casualties. 

Edited April 30, 2017 by JoMc67

[LUCASWILLEN05]

16 hours ago, Oleksandr said:

First of all always Split Teams - so that each squad is devided into few parts - if one element of a squad will run, another element may stay under your control. 

Always think where you are sending you infantry in? What do I mean by that? Try to keep your soldiers under cover, yet, if that is not possible look for landscape - hills and stuff. Sometimes it can be open but you always can find some hills for visual cover. That leads us to another important aspect - understanding of the trrain and general direction - meaning that you should always guess or better know from where those shots will be fired. 

Another important moment is to always keep your armomor a not too close to your soldiers, because if your tank or APC will be recked - explosion can affect your infantry. 

So keep the distance. 

After you did that you need to check on buildings you holding. If you picking a building always rememeber that it is important to pick a right building. Dont take those buildings which are facing enemy directly (first line). It is always better to keep your soldiers deep in the town - so that when the enemy comes with a support of an armor the angle will be not comfortable and your infantry will have a chance to give some damage to attacking side. 

Now another thing is important - while putting your soldiers into the building with few floors remember to split your squad! Some soldiers should go on the 3rd floor some on the 2nd some on the 1st. That will allow you to keep your soldiers effective even if an enemy will use nades or thermobaric weapons. Basically one element can get hit while nother element is keep on fighting. 

Avoid using roofs if possible. Roofs are good for observation when its safe but most of the time your soldiers will get recked pretty damn fast. 

So how would you place your soldiers in a 3 floor building? 

AT guys are going on a 2nd floor, while mg goes on a first floor, the guy with optics goes on 3rd. Yet, this can vary depending on what situation you are in. Sometimes its better to stay low untill enemy is close enough and then take the 3rd floor. 

Always remember that there should be other buildings infront of that one you taking. Unless its rural or Forest - the logic is simple - your soldiers are hiddent till the last moment - when they being spotted - it is already too late. 

Now remember that retreating is important - how would you retreat? First of all you taking away those guys who are at the top level - MG should leave the building last. 

How do you know when to retreat? 

When the fire on your infantry gets concentrated. 

Whats the difference between concentrated and chaotic? 

Concentrated is when your enemy shooting you from different directions and different weapon systems from the long range. That means that your position is now on your enemy's list and he knows what he is doing. Chaotic is when your enemy walks into the town and then suddenly starts to shoot you coz u killing him - it can be intense but if you did everything right enemy squad will leave its teeth on a ground. 

How do you survive an artillery strike? 

First of all maintain control over the situation - do not skip your turns - when you see first few shells going down u already should know that in 3-4 minutes your forces will be in a big trouble. You should take mesaured right away - first of all evac your heavy guns (MG's, AT systems, and so on). Why in that order? because they will take time to pack up.

How do you evac? 

Depends on what you have - if you have personal carriers you take use them, if you dont you seek for cover. Remember that building is your last resort - do not think that buildings will save your soldiers. It will simply minimize the damage. When planing you retreat turn look on what is surrounding you - ask yourself: is there a forest somewhere near by? is it safe to cross your feild? and mark for yourself one point - if arty is working on you that means that an enemy got clear eyes on you. 

Another important aspect is to keep your forces physically ready to move - do not advance with "FAST and Quick" on a long distances - there is an old military saying "you can go fast or you can go far" use it. 

If you will be careful, but in the same time dare, if you will know your enemy, if you will know yourself, if you will understand terrain, and if you will get an edge on buildings you might minimize your casualties. 

FREE HINT ON USING AT TEAMS: split two squads - find a shooting position to 1 rpg(bazooka whatever) team. Spot a target - put one of your RPG teams at position - make a turn (ur rpg team will shoot 2-3 times) then - after turn ends order your RPG to move away on a short distance and at the same time order another RPG team to take its place. Why? Because your enemy will see an RPG team - will aim and then its gone - your enemy will take away the aim - and in the same moment another RPG team will shoot it from the very same place. Repeat that untill your enemy's apc/tank/whatever is burining. Such little trics on micro level will help you to raise your effectivity and minimize your casualties. 

Remember those are core rules, while getting into more combat you will get your own tricks developed - and soon you will forget about - what its like to see your soldiers runing. But your enemy will run. Good luck! 

Good advice there. I would add 

1 Avoid sending units out into the open as much as possible

2 Use overwatch/covering fire Machine guns and tanks!

3 Soften up likely enemy positions with artillery/air

4 Use smoke!

5 Always remember the key is Combined Arms

Edited May 1, 2017 by LUCASWILLEN05

[slysniper]

WELL, IF BY SOME CHANCE BF READS THIS.

I add my vote as to the latest tweeks to the infantry as making it less realistic instead of improving it from the previous version.

Of course this always starts with the fact that players were not happy with it as it was, so they make adjustments and again here we are as player complaining we do not like it as it is.

What I find interesting is that some players like portions of the new behavior but most agree that the overall effect is not very desirable.

I will comment on this more later - have a meeting to get to

 

 

[Glubokii Boy]

9 minutes ago, slysniper said:

 

What I find interesting is that some players like portions of the new behavior but most agree that the overall effect is not very desirable 

 

 

Shows that this indeed is a difficult thing to get right.

It also shows how high demands we have on this game... And where it shines ! 

Realism ! 

 

[slysniper]

OK , I'm back

I have to agree with different comments from both sides of the camp in this thread and other threads before.

When I view the infantry in the open and how they are acting, I see it as being somewhat more realistic.

But on the other hand , when infantry is in cover, and no I do not mean just fortifications, then their reaction many times seem very unrealistic.

 

I have no clue what BF can and cannot do in their programming.

But if I had to say what's correct and what's not, then presently, infantry in the open seems pretty good, when they break I wish they would head towards cover more than they seem to do, but that would depend if they are routing or withdrawing, which is hard to know at times which they are doing.

As for breaking from present cover and fortifications, I think it is pretty clear that has been a undesired effect in the latest changes.

But before, sometimes they were too determined to stay in place no matter the amount of fire they were receiving.

whatever programming that can be done, infantry should have a tendency to stay and use cover when it is working. The only time they should be breaking from it is when it seems clear that staying in such a place means death at some point.

If there is a way to get them to hold cover until a certain percentage die or are seriously wounded, that seems to make much better sense than the present. but How to program a unit to hold a position unless the location is being overwhelmed with firepower is only something BF can decide is possible or not.

 

 

 

[LUCASWILLEN05]

5 minutes ago, slysniper said:

OK , I'm back

I have to agree with different comments from both sides of the camp in this thread and other threads before.

When I view the infantry in the open and how they are acting, I see it as being somewhat more realistic.

But on the other hand , when infantry is in cover, and no I do not mean just fortifications, then their reaction many times seem very unrealistic.

 

I have no clue what BF can and cannot do in their programming.

But if I had to say what's correct and what's not, then presently, infantry in the open seems pretty good, when they break I wish they would head towards cover more than they seem to do, but that would depend if they are routing or withdrawing, which is hard to know at times which they are doing.

As for breaking from present cover and fortifications, I think it is pretty clear that has been a undesired effect in the latest changes.

But before, sometimes they were too determined to stay in place no matter the amount of fire they were receiving.

whatever programming that can be done, infantry should have a tendency to stay and use cover when it is working. The only time they should be breaking from it is when it seems clear that staying in such a place means death at some point.

If there is a way to get them to hold cover until a certain percentage die or are seriously wounded, that seems to make much better sense than the present. but How to program a unit to hold a position unless the location is being overwhelmed with firepower is only something BF can decide is possible or not.

 

 

 

From what I have seen so far with the current update (and I only purchased this a week ago) units in cover coming under heavy fire stay there most of the time rather than bugging out. Units in the open but in a bad situation (heavy close range fire causing casualties probably will bug out. Which is as it should be.

Perhaps the way forward on this is to document situations and responses taking into account tactical circumstances, type of cover. morale, leadership, amount of incoming fire  etc. Videoing what happens and quantifying the ratings of the unit in question is necessary to assess what happens and why