tanks shoot through buildings bug

[Will S]

Hi. This is my first post here but I am playing a game where there is a bug or something and wanted to know if others had experienced this.

I am in a QB and there are some buildings which are on the map, but the armor can see through and shoot through as if they were not there. I have been able to spot an enemy tank with ground forces that should have been fully obscured behind a row of buildings. One of my tanks shot an enemy tank and hit it direct broadside through a building (the rear of the tank was exposed but that is not where the round hit, I thought it could be a minor glitch until the behavior was repeated). And one of my tanks was destroyed when it took rounds from two separate enemy tanks, both of which sent rounds through buildings that could be seen on the map, but obviously had no effect on blocking tank rounds. 

This was most definitely not a terrain or slope situation, all armor was behind buildings which should have fully concealed them from the surrounding terrain and viewpoints.

 

Anyone have any thoughts? Is there a official way to report this to battlefront? Thanks!

[Holman]

They're going to want a savegame if possible.

I'm not sure where you'd send it, but I'm sure someone will be along to tell you.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Holman

[sburke]

post a link to the save and someone will take a look.  If you don't have a save but at least know the Qb map and buildings in question that might still work.  Other than that I have not had any "transparent" building issues and haven't heard of any others.  I have gone so far as to delete two sides of a building to try and create tank ambushes and have found even with exterior walls deleted the building still blocked LOS.

[MOS:96B2P]

2 hours ago, Will S said:

<Snip> I am in a QB and there are some buildings which are on the map, but the armor can see through and shoot through as if they were not there. I have been able to spot an enemy tank with ground forces that should have been fully obscured behind a row of buildings. One of my tanks shot an enemy tank and hit it direct broadside through a building <Snip>

Did your tank actually spot the OpFor tank and have an identified OpFor tank icon or just a tentative (?) icon?

Did you area Target the building with your tank or did your tank's AI take the shot on its own?  

[Artemis258]

 

[MikeyD]

I don't know if this applies, but in the distant past WeGo playback animations would sometimes not be 100% in synch with events. Very very minor stuff like the rare bullet appearing to go through walls when it didn't, stuff that you wouldn't see when playing in realtime. It wouldn't affect the outcome, WeGo and Realtime calculations are the same. It was just the replay animations playing catch-up. I believe that was fixed long ago (many many years ago) but perhaps there might still be some extreme outlier events where this oddity might still pop up. Maybe.

[Will S]

18 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Did your tank actually spot the OpFor tank and have an identified OpFor tank icon or just a tentative (?) icon?

Did you area Target the building with your tank or did your tank's AI take the shot on its own?  

My tank spotted the OpFor tank it destroyed (it's tail was sticking out a bit behind the building, which is why I didn't think too much about it at first). My tank then put a few rounds into the side of the OpFor tank, through the building, and I believe it then reversed slightly, exposing more of itself and got the final KO.

This is not a great screenshot, and does show the rear of the panther exposed but believe me the rounds were coming through that building. My tank took the shot on its own, full spotted icon. This was the shot I noticed was strange, but chalked up to game weirdness because the OpFor tank was not fully concealed.

I don't have the turn saved still so a full video review is impossible, although I am going to set up a trial QB on this map to see if I can recreate the situation.

 

[Will S]

Okay, this forum won't allow me to upload any more screenshots, says they exceed my allowance, even though the screenshots are all smaller than .49 mb. Is that my allowance for the entire forum?

I'll try to post more info soon.

The next shot was the really weird one, if I could get a screenshot up it would be obivous there was zero line of sight between the OpFor tank and the one it destroyed, as well as zero line of sight between it and my infantry that spotted it through a solid line of buildings.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Will S

[A Canadian Cat]

Yeah the upload allowance is really small. Many people use a 3rd party host to upload their pics. For example Photobucket but there are others too.

[MOS:96B2P]

11 minutes ago, Will S said:

My tank spotted the OpFor tank it destroyed (it's tail was sticking out a bit behind the building, which is why I didn't think too much about it at first). My tank then put a few rounds into the side of the OpFor tank, through the building, <Snip>

 

I think I understand how this happened.  I have done this before but I had never seen the AI do this on it's own.  AP rounds will go through buildings.  However if ordered to area fire (which is what you are doing when you Target a building) the AI will select HE rounds (as long as it has HE rounds left) which do not penetrate.  In this case the AI had a verified spot on the OpFor tank and selected AP.    

 

3 minutes ago, Will S said:

Okay, this forum won't allow me to upload any more screenshots, says they exceed my allowance, even though the screenshots are all smaller than .49 mb. Is that my allowance for the entire forum?

I'll try to post more info soon.

I use Photobucket.  It's free and there are a few other sites that are also free.  Not sure how the forum rules work but with a third party hosting site like Photobucket I have never had to worry about it.   

[Will S]

So I got photobucket, hope it works out.

This is the OpForce Panther that put a round into my tank, that was directly in front of it about 200-250 meters away. You can't see where my tank is cause of the building. This is also the tank my infantry spotted as if the buildings on the tanks left were not there. My infantry was ~400 meters away to the tanks 10 o'clock, approximately equal elevation.

 

This is my destroyed tank. (Trees are off for viewing) The German icon at its 12 is the tank in the above photo, and also one of the two that put rounds into it.

 

This shows the second OpFor tank that a put rounds into my tank through the closest building. My tank was forward a few meters specifically to put the building between it and the OpFor tank at its 2. It was then hit from it's 12 from a round that went through a building (see previous photo). I forget if the tank at it's 2 put a round through the closest building, or just hit it when it reversed, but I think it did put a round through the building that should have fully provided cover for my tank.

[Erwin]

In my almost 20 years of playing the various CM games, "cutting corners" re LOS close to buildings is a pretty common experience.  The fact is that the LOS system has "eccentricities".  The problem is that some people think that this game system is "perfect" and that any weirdness can be explained as sort of deliberate design decision to make things more "realistic".  Imo it's a wonderful game system, but making perfect sim of reality is probably impossible even for multi-zillion $ DoD sims, let alone a small independent product like this.  CM2 doesn't have perfect WYSIWYG.  It's a game.  Nothing to worry about imo.

[Will S]

11 minutes ago, Erwin said:

In my almost 20 years of playing the various CM games, "cutting corners" re LOS close to buildings is a pretty common experience.  The fact is that the LOS system has "eccentricities".  The problem is that some people think that this game system is "perfect" and that any weirdness can be explained as sort of deliberate design decision to make things more "realistic".  Imo it's a wonderful game system, but making perfect sim of reality is probably impossible even for multi-zillion $ DoD sims, let alone a small independent product like this.  CM2 doesn't have perfect WYSIWYG.  It's a game.  Nothing to worry about imo.

I agree, I think it's a great game, and yes it's not perfect. I never stated or asked that it be a perfect sim of real life so I'm not sure where you got the idea that was my point.  However I would think there should be some standard of cover behind huge buildings, and since I have never seen an event like this in many CM games I decided to post.

When armor rounds can go through not one but multiple buildings like they aren't there it seems to me more than just a game eccentricity. I understand LOS imperfection. Like I stated in the first scenario where rounds went through walls, since the rear of the tank was partially visible, I chalked it up to LOS imperfection and didn't think much of it. The second time when armor was pegged from two OpFor tanks, both which sent rounds through walls and none of my tank was hanging around a corner, that it was not  LOS quirk and that's why I'm posting here. The OpFor tank was also clearly visible to infantry even though it was fully concealed behind not just one but an entire row of buildings. I would think it's not too much to expect solid objects to act as such. If you are playing a game in which buildings are prevalent they will be used as cover. If those buildings routinely do not stop rounds, and can be seen through as if they aren't there, it does take away from the game. Only way to fix it is to speak up.

I also have no idea what WYSIWYG means.

[MOS:96B2P]

2 hours ago, Will S said:

My tank spotted the OpFor tank it destroyed (it's tail was sticking out a bit behind the building, which is why I didn't think too much about it at first). My tank then put a few rounds into the side of the OpFor tank, through the building, <Snip> 

For this first incident where the above Panther was knocked out.  I think my explanation above is still correct and reasonable.

 

43 minutes ago, Will S said:

So I got photobucket, hope it works out.

This is the OpForce Panther that put a round into my tank, that was directly in front of it about 200-250 meters away. You can't see where my tank is cause of the building. This is also the tank my infantry spotted as if the buildings on the tanks left were not there. My infantry was ~400 meters away to the tanks 10 o'clock, approximately equal elevation.  <Snip> 

Now this one I don't understand and have never seen before.  An AI unit needs a confirmed contact that it has eyes on to be able to engage said contact.  The AI will not even shoot at tentative contacts.  Building are not seen through and with the rare exception explained above, are not shot through.  

Do you have the floating icons turned off?  I don't see any in the two screenshots above.  

What version and engine of the game are you playing.  When you first start the game on the splash screen in the lower right corner it will read CMFB v2.0 Engine 4.  Just wondering, what's on your screen?  (Not that it matters to much.  Even in older versions I have not seen this behavior)

Good job on getting Photobucket.  

  

[A Canadian Cat]

@MOS:96B2P's explanation about the shots through the barns when part of the tank is visible is likely correct. The TacAI of the shooting tank should be aiming for the centre of visible target - the butt end of the OpFor tank exposed from behind the barn. The shot can go wide. In one direction that would be a miss in the other it will go through the barn. So the hit on the tank could be an imperfection in the handling of the barn blocking the shot or it could really have just gone through the barn - which are very very light buildings in the game.

This on the other hand does not look good...

1 hour ago, Will S said:

So I got photobucket, hope it works out.

This is the OpForce Panther that put a round into my tank, that was directly in front of it about 200-250 meters away. You can't see where my tank is cause of the building. This is also the tank my infantry spotted as if the buildings on the tanks left were not there. My infantry was ~400 meters away to the tanks 10 o'clock, approximately equal elevation.

 

This is my destroyed tank. (Trees are off for viewing) The German icon at its 12 is the tank in the above photo, and also one of the two that put rounds into it.

So there are two probable problems with the above. The Infantry that can see the Panther, from your description really should not be able to. And the Panther acquiring and firing on the tank through those buildings also seems very wrong.

You said you didn't have a save but you do know the map involved. Can you tell us the map name, please. If you do reproduce this make some saves.

 

1 hour ago, Will S said:

I agree, I think it's a great game, and yes it's not perfect. I never stated or asked that it be a perfect sim of real life so I'm not sure where you got the idea that was my point.  However I would think there should be some standard of cover behind huge buildings, and since I have never seen an event like this in many CM games I decided to post.

Don't worry @Erwin is not giving you a hard time he is giving a dig to people like me who try to explain how the game works and explain what is happening. He is not the only one that gets upset and bent out of shape when people come along and say "well that game behaviour might not be quite right but its close enough don't worry your pretty little head over it" To be fair when you feel slighted by the game and people tell you that it really is not that bad and might be an OK result, showing a little passive aggressive tendencies now and then is one way to go. . And yes I am aware that this sounds just like the pot talking to the kettle.

[Will S]

Yeah Mos, I have floating Icons off in the image you were referring to. These screenshots are from an ongoing battle, plus my destroyed tank would not have an icon anyway. The image below should give you a good idea. In it you can see the destroyed Sherman, and the icon for the Panther that shot it. It is the same Panther you reposted, it has not moved, and you can also see the buildings that are between the two tanks. When the Panther shot the Sherman the tanks were in view of each other according to the icons, even though there is a row of obvious blocking buildings between them. Ditto for the panther at the Shermans 2, it was fully spotted and shot at through the building on the Shermans right. Like I've been saying, its like the game just does not detect the buildings in this one.

I wish I had gotten a video when I had the chance. It's a PBEM game and turns get deleted as I go through them. Tried to set up another QB, but since I can only play one side it didn't work out right. Version 4, updated and patched to latest everything, opponent has the same.

I know there have been other weird bugs CM has fixed in patches. Disappearing tanks in a CW campaign comes to mind as something a bit similar to this. Just trying to disseminate knowledge so if there is a big it might be fixed for future.

[Will S]

@IanL The map is CMFB 126p.

[A Canadian Cat]

Thanks. I'll add it to my todo list - warning though it is a long list :D. If you want to experiment you can create a two person hot seat game. Then you can control both forces and setup similar positioning.

[eniced73]

Will is correct.  I duplicated this.  Those two buildings, the farmhouse and the small one next to it, do not block LOS for some reason.  I opened the editor and put the exact same buildings on the map but in different spots but they DID block LOS.  I also replaced the two "problem buildings" with a random different building and the new buildings DID block the LOS.  ????

[Erwin]

It could be that there is a crack in the wall plaster as is normal with farmhouses and small sheds that is hard to see and that the gunner can see thru via his telescopic sight.

[Michael Emrys]

1 hour ago, Erwin said:

It could be that there is a crack in the wall plaster as is normal with farmhouses and small sheds that is hard to see and that the gunner can see thru via his telescopic sight.

You're kidding, right?

Michael

[Erwin]

Mike:  I have had units killed by enemy shooting" impossible" shots from far away thru dense woods.  When computers play they can see 1 pixel gaps that we humans cannot.

PS:  I have been called "aggressive", but have been working on my "passive" side to be more of a complete person. 

Thank you...

[akd]

Well you aren't contributing anything.

Anyways, reproduced and reported.

[A Canadian Cat]

20 minutes ago, akd said:

Well you aren't contributing anything.

Anyways, reproduced and reported.

Awesome. On more item off my todo list