How to best represent the snipers that delayed the Allies?

[Pete Wenman]

 

An interesting counterpoint as to whether these really were snipers as Ken above touches on

"as relatively few Wehrmacht soldiers were trained snipers. The commander of 4th Armoured brigade gave orders that: ‘snipers’ were to be referred to as isolated enemy riflemen."

 

P

[George MC]

For setting this in a scenario - You'll need to buy a battalion, strip it down to a platoon, delete the rest of the platoon so you have a HQ (you'll need to allocate them as a reinforce unit with their time set for arrival waaaay past your scenario end time). Select teams and change the parameters to 'poor' equipment, also select head count as 50%. Voila! Single rifle men with **** gear. Piss about with the soft settings as suggested by @Combatintman As they are more likely to be stay behinds I'd select piss poor skills (that's a technical term - least them won't be ninja snipers - unless you want em that way in which case just ramp up their experience) but consider making fanatic. It does seem like these guys holed up then preferred to die in place.

[womble]

17 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Well that is exactly my question. I don't want supernaturally strong enemies, but I do want to make sure that the snipers are a force to be reckoned with, because they were in real life. I want to stick as closely as possible to making the scenario plausible.

As for weather etc. I am thinking around noon in August, so that likely means sunny, hot, and not too windy. I guess that would mean decently experienced snipers would be accurate out to... 4-500 metres?

The reason for putting high soft factors on teams that are supposed to represent really intensively-trained troops (like ones that have been through Sniper School) is because the extensive training is not represented in the base attributes of the unit. A Regular, Normal, Normal Sniper Team is no better at hiding than a two man scout team split off from a squad that ends up with the same soft factors, though the designation "Sniper" suggests that they ought to be, and the combat role you're looking to emulate suggests similarly. Sniper School graduates were pretty much the definition of elite troops.

[Bulletpoint]

1 hour ago, womble said:

The reason for putting high soft factors on teams that are supposed to represent really intensively-trained troops (like ones that have been through Sniper School) is because the extensive training is not represented in the base attributes of the unit. A Regular, Normal, Normal Sniper Team is no better at hiding than a two man scout team split off from a squad that ends up with the same soft factors, though the designation "Sniper" suggests that they ought to be, and the combat role you're looking to emulate suggests similarly. Sniper School graduates were pretty much the definition of elite troops.

This is good to know, because I assumed the quality of the unit would be relative to the type of unit. So I thought a "regular" sniper would probably be better at hiding than a "regular" rifleman. Will bump up the experience of at least some of the snipers then, depending on what exact mix I end up with. The challenge will be to make the player worry about the snipers, but still have a proper chance to find them and neutralise them.

[Sublime]

19 hours ago, Pete Wenman said:

 

An interesting counterpoint as to whether these really were snipers as Ken above touches on

"as relatively few Wehrmacht soldiers were trained snipers. The commander of 4th Armoured brigade gave orders that: ‘snipers’ were to be referred to as isolated enemy riflemen."

 

P

I definitely seem.to recall somewhere a US Army order that snipers were to be called isolated enemy riflemen for morale purposes in NWE Europe late war...

[A Canadian Cat]

6 hours ago, womble said:

The reason for putting high soft factors on teams that are supposed to represent really intensively-trained troops (like ones that have been through Sniper School) is because the extensive training is not represented in the base attributes of the unit. A Regular, Normal, Normal Sniper Team is no better at hiding than a two man scout team split off from a squad that ends up with the same soft factors, though the designation "Sniper" suggests that they ought to be, and the combat role you're looking to emulate suggests similarly. Sniper School graduates were pretty much the definition of elite troops.

I am sure Steve has commented on this before a few times but I could only find this:

The bottom line is in the WW2 titles the sniper teams do not by default represent soldiers who have received extensive special training.  So, if you want to represent that you need to use the appropriate soft factors.

[Sublime]

The only Cmx2 sniper teams that really act like sniper teams are the US modern BS sniper teams with the barrett etc. Ive seen them used and used then in the classic public idea of a sniper.

In the WW2 titles as Ian says i think it was Private IanL is the best shot for the company so give him the best condition scoped rifle.

An easy way to simulate the leftover isolated riflemen could be low quality medium motivation snipers or breaking off scout teams from squads and scattering those about.

[A Canadian Cat]

1 hour ago, Sublime said:

In the WW2 titles as Ian says i think it was Private IanL is the best shot for the company so give him the best condition scoped rifle.

LOL no that would not have been me.  I am a decidedly below average shot

[Michael Emrys]

1 minute ago, IanL said:

LOL no that would not have been me.  I am a decidedly below average shot

Ah, well then we'll give you the flame thrower. Just spray and pray.

Michael

[StieliAlpha]

On 12. Juli 2016 at 3:05 PM, Bulletpoint said:

Well that is exactly my question. I don't want supernaturally strong enemies, but I do want to make sure that the snipers are a force to be reckoned with, because they were in real life. I want to stick as closely as possible to making the scenario plausible.

As for weather etc. I am thinking around noon in August, so that likely means sunny, hot, and not too windy. I guess that would mean decently experienced snipers would be accurate out to... 4-500 metres?

Hm, normal "sportive" military rifle contests are at 300m. With the guys lying flat on their belly under side covered against moisture by waxed canvas blankets, with a mono glass at their side to observe there shooting, with all the time they want (OK, contest  shooting time is limited, but generous), shooting at "Bulletpoint" paper targets, WITHOUT incoming fire and nasty enemy trying to kill them, but admittedly with the usual tournament stress.

I forgot: Those guys have PLENTY of professional training and virtually thousands of rounds fired.

And well fed, rested, dry clothed...

To make a very long sentence short: Unless you create superheroes, no chance they hit a moving target at 400+ meters.

Edited July 14, 2016 by StieliAlpha

[Bulletpoint]

1 hour ago, StieliAlpha said:

To make a very long sentence short: Unless you create superheroes, no chance they hit a moving target at 400+ meters.

Alright, will make engagement ranges shorter to a maximum of 3-400 metres, but never intended them to hit moving targets at that range in any case.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Bulletpoint

[StieliAlpha]

1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said:

Alright, will make engagement ranges shorter to a maximum of 3-400 metres, but never intended them to hit moving targets at that range in any case.

Then what? Just harass? I do not think a "marksman" would give away his position, just to harass the enemy.

[Bulletpoint]

2 minutes ago, StieliAlpha said:

Then what? Just harass? I do not think a "marksman" would give away his position, just to harass the enemy.

No, I just assumed targets would mostly be stationary..

[StieliAlpha]

18 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

No, I just assumed targets would mostly be stationary..

Hmmm, I am not quite sure what you intend and I do not think a scenario with marksmen as a "force" is very realistic.

But a very small scenario, with a platoon or so, hunting the one very good marksman, may be fun.

[Bulletpoint]

1 minute ago, StieliAlpha said:

Hmmm, I am not quite sure what you intend and I do not think a scenario with marksmen as a "force" is very realistic.

But a very small scenario, with a platoon or so, hunting the one very good marksman, may be fun.

Don't worry, it's not going to focus on the marksmen. They will just play a role in a bigger picture.  

[StieliAlpha]

19 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Don't worry, it's not going to focus on the marksmen. They will just play a role in a bigger picture.  

How did my Ozzy friend say the other day: "I would not worry NOW." ?

[LongLeftFlank]

Tactically, I think the chronically understrength German units used snipers largely to observe, harass, interdict movement, hinder observation, and otherwise cover areas not properly covered by regulars, rather than sending them out man-hunting. Movement is pretty high risk at the front, including for snipers. And that's probably also their best use in game.

In defense, their highest value mission would be delay, forcing enemy troops to ground, rather than racking up kills. I'm reading the Green Book on Saipan and it's amazing how a few shots from a hidden shooter could halt an entire platoon for the duration until leaders rallied them, even if nobody was hit. Which could then halt the parent company due to gaps on the flanks.

They'd pick out enemy leaders and FOs in preference if fortunate enough to get such a target. 

Of course you do have specialists, but they are rarely encountered and I doubt they stick around a fluid combat environment.

Except maybe in the 1945 Volksturm period, which might have given rise to some GI legends, I personally doubt sharpshooters were specially selected for fanaticism or murderousness, or fought to the death any more often than their comrades.  I imagine they'd ditch their scoped weapon and surrender if bypassed at least as often as they'd attempt a killing spree behind the lines. But because they are feared opponents - don't fight fair, can strike at any time, shoot medics etc. - infantry legends grow up around their ruthlessness. One nonvet's speculation, anyway.

[Ithikial_AU]

On 12/07/2016 at 9:23 PM, ASL Veteran said:

You should also keep in mind that the number of actual 'trained' snipers who were operating in a way that a modern sniper might recognize were fairly limited.  I'm going to guess that more often than not, personal accounts and 'reports' of sniper activity were likely simply individual riflemen or perhaps buddy teams who went out and 'sniped' even though they were not fully trained 'snipers'.  In some cases these reported snipers were simply teenage boys separated from their unit who happened to have a rifle handy and the will to use it.  So I think you have two choices available to you.  You could sprinkle a relatively large number of low quality 'sniper' teams with maybe regular skill and normal morale all over your map or you could sprinkle one or two high skill snipers with normal morale out on your map.

Beat me to it.

My understanding of 'sniper' reports were overblown by the Allies mistaking any kind of K98 rifle fire against them. Sort of the infantry version of calling every German tank a Tiger. With the same bolt action rifle being used by the Germans for general infantry combat and designated marksmanship (ignoring the rare Scoped G43), it would be impossible on the recieving end to distinguish if the fire was from a scoped rifle or not expect possibly if a great distance was involved. In the ambush friendly Normandy terrain you'd be terrified if the odd shot kept ringing out as you tried to advance - and given you aren't likely to spot the shooter for a while would likely lead to the prevelance to report sniper.

Splitting off scouting 'buddy teams' from squads could be the best bet inside the editor to achieve this in game and is, I think, the most likely sources of these snipers in many cases back in 1944. The scouts in all likelihood are coming from the parent company that is holding that part of the line and serving an advance party or forming a very light rearguard. Adding in extra troops from another arm of the German armed forces or trying to give these troops some miracle boost in skill and morale isn't the best way to reflect these roles in game. They are there to be a nusiance, slow the advance, lower morle and get the odd casualty. One guy picking of 20 advancing Allied infantry is probably a bit much.

[nik mond]

Creating the experience of having the player being the victim of a sniper attack is as important as selecting the sniper attributes itself imho. For example giving the sniper a concealed position at max effective range to ensure his survivability. Veteran or elite so his shots are actually hits. And use of triggers. For example script a trigger so that he pulls back to the next defensive position when the enemy touch ground 250 or 300 meters range from his location or whatever is 50 meters less of the AI tactical range. Something along those lines. Of course best laid plans don't always pan out as expected, so two sniper teams using this teqnique could be the ticket for a sniper experience.

Edited July 24, 2016 by nik mond

[Michael Emrys]

3 hours ago, nik mond said:

Creating the experience of having the player being the victim of a sniper attack is as important as selecting the sniper attributes itself imho. For example giving the sniper a concealed position at max effective range to ensure his survivability. Veteran or elite so his shots are actually hits. And use of triggers. For example script a trigger so that he pulls back to the next defensive position when the enemy touch ground 250 or 300 meters range from his location or whatever is 50 meters less of the AI tactical range. Something along those lines. Of course best laid plans don't always pan out as expected, so two sniper teams using this teqnique could be the ticket for a sniper experience.

This sounds very wise to me. Something of the same philosophy might be employed by a scenario designer who wishes to replicate the historical tactics of tank destroyers, for instance. The ranges would of course be longer, but the practice of opening fire from a concealed position and then quickly displacing to the next position was how it was done.

Michael

[Sublime]

I also STR that Allied HQ ordered in the summer 44 that the term snipers stopped being used in favor of 'isolated enemy riflmen' for morale purposes...