Splitting squads by doctrine

[domfluff]

I was trying to work out how you would end up with the Commonwealth squads split historically, with a three man Bren section.
This led to learning a few things, which I thought might be useful to share. Comments appreciated, particularly if anything is inaccurate. Doing this with Commonwealth sections seems to help me quite a bit in moving them around effectively.

Grenadiers:


German Grenadier squad centre on a single MG42. They can split once, so to get to the historical doctrine of an MG42 team and a manoeuvre group, the best option seems to be a simple "Split" command, although this leaves the MG42 with a team of four, not three.

Panzergrenadiers:

Panzer Grenadiers also split with a simple "Split" command - Panzer Grenadiers use the more modern fireteam approach, of two four man teams, each centered on an MG42.

Commonwealth Section:


Commonwealth sections can be split historically with a "Split" command, which will create three teams, and then two of the teams can be re-combined to form a three man Bren team, and a six man + leader manoeuvre element. This element can use the Assault command, or split off men as a Scout team or Antitank team, as appropriate.


US Squads:

US squads are complex. The best way to get the historical split seems to be to create a "Scout team" first, and then an "Assault Team", which should create the historical BAR/Assault/Scout elements that the US used in WW2.

[Bud Backer]

I was trying to work out how you would end up with the Commonwealth squads split historically, with a three man Bren section.
This led to learning a few things, which I thought might be useful to share. Comments appreciated, particularly if anything is inaccurate. Doing this with Commonwealth sections seems to help me quite a bit in moving them around effectively.

Grenadiers:


German Grenadier squad centre on a single MG42. They can split once, so to get to the historical doctrine of an MG42 team and a manoeuvre group, the best option seems to be a simple "Split" command, although this leaves the MG42 with a team of four, not three.

Panzergrenadiers:

Panzer Grenadiers also split with a simple "Split" command - Panzer Grenadiers use the more modern fireteam approach, of two four man teams, each centered on an MG42.

Commonwealth Section:


Commonwealth sections can be split historically with a "Split" command, which will create three teams, and then two of the teams can be re-combined to form a three man Bren team, and a six man + leader manoeuvre element. This element can use the Assault command, or split off men as a Scout team or Antitank team, as appropriate.


US Squads:

US squads are complex. The best way to get the historical split seems to be to create a "Scout team" first, and then an "Assault Team", which should create the historical BAR/Assault/Scout elements that the US used in WW2.

That's interesting, I've never considered the doctrinal aspect of splitting, I always looked at it as ad hoc decisions made by the squad leader due to necessity. Thanks for sharing this.

 

Edited January 17, 2016 by Bud_B

[mjkerner]

I always split my squads into teams, except for move to contact out of LOS/LOF. There are other ways though, but it will be dependent on the size of the squad..AT, Assault , and Scout sections.  There is a lot of flexibility available to all Nation's squads, but again, the larger the squad, the more there is to work with.

edit: I should have been clear that by utilizing some or all of those options, you can create "doctrinaire" sections within squads, or modify them as circumstances require.

Edited January 17, 2016 by mjkerner

[womble]

Splitting an American squad using the Assault Team command and then splitting the scout team off works just as well as splitting the scout team first. The BAR and Scout sections would just swap their designations: splitting Assault-first makes the scout team "C", splitting Scout first makes them "B". Also, if there's an AT team going to be coming out of the mix, you want to split Assault Team first whichever nation you're talking about, or the AT team is going to nick all the grenades; splitting Assault first means your "SMG team" (which you'll be expecting to operate in closest proximity to the enemy) gets the lion's share of the explosives. It isn't often that a zook/shreck/PIAT team gets close enough to an armoured target to run out of rounds and still need grenades for a "close assault".

[domfluff]

Cheers, that definitely makes sense. Grenade management is a large chunk of it.

Doing the above has definitely improved my CW game - the three man bren team is the minimum possible, and naturally the lmg is the point of the team, so dropping off almost all the rifles doesn't result in a huge drop in effective firepower. The manoeuvre element is large enough to split itself again, and five rifles plus sten is more than sufficient against a team the bren is suppressing.

Obviously ad hoc splitting can and should be done, but I think it's useful to see how the squads look when they're used as intended - splitting a scout team off the panzergrenadiers, for example, leaves you with an unsplittable six man team with two mg42. That's not necessarily a bad idea, but in most situations I think you'll get more from two mg-focused fire teams, which also means that scouting needs to be handled by the squad as a whole, rather than a tiny, dedicated part of it.

Edited January 17, 2016 by domfluff

[RockinHarry]

There wasn´t any german doctrine of a squads seperate lMG and a maneuvre team in existence beyond october 1939. Beginning with the french 1940 campaign and until end of the war, squad handling was simplified to allow the squad leader better control, focus (concentration) and flexibility to employ the squad members dependent on circumstances. In fact there´s no way to realistically compose (micro) "teams" from within a normal german grenadier squad in CMX2. Beside considering a german squads better dispersal during deployment and movements for game play reasons, there´s no options left to realistically split a german squad for various tactical purposes (lMG only, riflemen only, observer only, marksman only, and more). OTOH the limited splitting options also reflect the unified squad handling and in fact when speaking of maneuvre and support groups, germans handled that on squad and not team basis (after october 1939 as said). Sounds like a backstep maybe, but the changed "doctrine" was actually initiated from wartime experience (Poland campaign). This just leaves considerations for how to employ and split a german squad for plain game play reasons.

A split off german support team containing the lMG lacks the squad leader (+ his possible leadership mods) and his binocs for effective longer range support fires, which is beyond normal rifle range (300m +). That means for the lMG to be most effective at medium (<= 800m) ranges, the squad should be actually non splitted. At ranges below normal rifle range (<= 300m) where spotting and targeting chances increase dramatically for both opponents, even without having binocs, splitting squads does not do much for broader tactical purposes, unless in very restrictive terrain maybe.

With regard to Panzergrenadiers (or the odd motorized german paras) having two lMG "teams", one also needs more to think of fire concentration, not capability to engage two seperate targets with two squad lMG´s. A non splitted german Panzergrandier squad having 2 lMG´s and guidance from the squad leader with his binocs, is more effective generally. Historically the german lMG (team) when operating alone (under guidance of the squad leader or independently), then only the gunner and his loading assitant would engage, while any other soldiers carrying ammo, were to stay in cover out of direct sight of the enemy. In the game, you always have one or two guys too much in the lMG (support) team, making it an unnessecary large target, more easily to be spotted and eganged by the enemy.

Generally when trying to employ german squads with some realistic "doctrinal" thoughts in mind, think in platoon tactics, maneuvering whole squads and not split off teams. That means moving and supporting by and through whole squads, not teams. Fire concentration and concentration generally was the key idea. Splitting off special teams (AT, scouts) for very small scale tactical purposes is a different matter and the game allows such a freedom. Yet it wasn´t anchored by "doctrine" historically and left to the squad leader when circumstances demanded.

[domfluff]

A split off german support team containing the lMG lacks the squad leader (+ his possible leadership mods) and his binocs for effective longer range support fires, which is beyond normal rifle range (300m +). That means for the lMG to be most effective at medium (<= 800m) ranges, the squad should be actually non splitted. At ranges below normal rifle range (<= 300m) where spotting and targeting chances increase dramatically for both opponents, even without having binocs, splitting squads does not do much for broader tactical purposes, unless in very restrictive terrain maybe.

That's really interesting, and I hadn't considered the position of the squad leader with the MG team - and from memory that's even reflected in the doctrine, no?

[RockinHarry]

That's really interesting, and I hadn't considered the position of the squad leader with the MG team - and from memory that's even reflected in the doctrine, no?

This document gives an accurate overview about german squad tactics and doctrine from 1940 onwards (pages 11-19 in particular):

http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/cgsc/carl/wwIIspec/number09.pdf

How that all is modelled, or can be recreated in CMX2 is a different question though. Personally I take always the squad leader and its qualities into consideration, when thinking of squad tactics, splitting off teams, engagement ranges and all that. For spotting and longer range engagement purposes, the squad leader having a binoc or not, is also worth consideration, which applies for all nationalities, not just the germans. In fact, splitting squads can be a two edged sword, when in wrong circumstances or with wrong tactical thinking.

[Badger73]

This document gives an accurate overview about german squad tactics and doctrine from 1940 onwards (pages 11-19 in particular):

http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/cgsc/carl/wwIIspec/number09.pdf

<snipped>

Thank you!

[grunt_GI]

This document gives an accurate overview about german squad tactics and doctrine from 1940 onwards (pages 11-19 in particular):

http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/cgsc/carl/wwIIspec/number09.pdf

How that all is modelled, or can be recreated in CMX2 is a different question though. Personally I take always the squad leader and its qualities into consideration, when thinking of squad tactics, splitting off teams, engagement ranges and all that. For spotting and longer range engagement purposes, the squad leader having a binoc or not, is also worth consideration, which applies for all nationalities, not just the germans. In fact, splitting squads can be a two edged sword, when in wrong circumstances or with wrong tactical thinking.

Also wanted to say thanks...very interesting.

[General Jack Ripper]

Just so happens my next TTP video is going to be about this very same topic.

Weird!

[domfluff]

SIGINT failure, presumably. Might have to be more careful around unsecured nets. 

[Boomkow]

What about Fallschirmjagers and US Airborne?

[domfluff]

Unsure of the doctrine here, but inferring from the game:

US Glider infantry are mostly the same as their leg infantry. The paratroopers are also pretty similar in practice, replacing the BAR with the M1919. Since the BAR isn't a light machine gun in any real sense (it's fine when adding to the volume of small arms fire, but it can't operate by itself at all), this means that the distinctions between the assault and support teams should be more pronounced.

Fallschirmjager (using Normandy as the base here, since a lot of different formations would be called "Fallschirmjager") have larger squads than the usual German formations, and therefore can split into three groups. Two of these groups are centered around MG42's and the third usually has the SMG's and MP44's. Usually, any FG42 is paired with one of the MG42's, rather than going with the third team to make three LMG-fireteams.

[RockinHarry]

The german Fallschirmjager OOB in CMBN is more or less based on ideal conditions with regard to manpower and equipment, something that practically applied only for parts of the german para force of that time in NWE. In september 1944 at the latest a typical german para squad would more likely resemble a standard infantry squad at about 9-10 men and just having one lMG. Also motorization would be almost nil and already lacking in june 1944.

The given para squad composition more resembles the pre 1940 german infantry having an assault and one support group by doctrine. From what I read, the Fallschirmjager would keep the 2 lMG in a single support group (not 2 teams) and general tactics would be not fundamentally different from the german infantry squad of that time (fire power concentration and the squad beeing the smalles combat and maneuvre unit). German paras were (supposed to be) stronger in light armaments (lMG) for the general lack of more heavy support arms within the divisional structure. In late 1944 the german para formations in NWE theatre in fact were more generally underarmed than their brothers from the Heer (infantry divisions) and supposed to boost lacking combat power through esprit de corps.

[Badger73]

The german Fallschirmjager OOB in CMBN is more or less based on ideal conditions with regard to manpower and equipment, something that practically applied only for parts of the german para force of that time in NWE. In september 1944 at the latest a typical german para squad would more likely resemble a standard infantry squad at about 9-10 men and just having one lMG. Also motorization would be almost nil and already lacking in june 1944.

<snipped>

Good stuff.  Question about WW2 infantry unit OOB's; particularly comparing like units within the same army at different times and different type units against each other at the same times.  There's a conversation at The Few Good Men on what's available and where to find them at the platoon and company level.  Any recommendations?  Thank you.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Badger73

[Pak40]

Unsure of the doctrine here, but inferring from the game:

US Glider infantry are mostly the same as their leg infantry. The paratroopers are also pretty similar in practice, replacing the BAR with the M1919. Since the BAR isn't a light machine gun in any real sense (it's fine when adding to the volume of small arms fire, but it can't operate by itself at all), this means that the distinctions between the assault and support teams should be more pronounced.

US Paratroopers squads can vary quite a bit too. BAR wasn't really replaced since the troopers used them in Normandy and beyond. The MG module often has two BARs per squad plus the M1919, IIRC. That's a lot of firepower when coupled with the usual semi autos of the M1s and the close range Thompsons.

[RockinHarry]

Good stuff.  Question about WW2 infantry unit OOB's; particularly comparing like units within the same army at different times and different type units against each other at the same times.  There's a conversation at The Few Good Men on what's available and where to find them at the platoon and company level.  Any recommendations?  Thank you.

Here´s some useful net resources on german OOB´s, although not complete unfortunately. I don´t know of anything comparable for russian, US and CW.

http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstnmain.htm

http://www.sturmpanzer.com/Default.aspx?tabindex=5&tabid=621&item=3&sec=1

 

[Badger73]

 

Here´s some useful net resources on german OOB´s, although not complete unfortunately. I don´t know of anything comparable for russian, US and CW.

http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstnmain.htm

http://www.sturmpanzer.com/Default.aspx?tabindex=5&tabid=621&item=3&sec=1

 

Thank you! or apropos to the first URL, "Danke viel mals!"

[RockinHarry]

Thank you! or apropos to the first URL, "Danke viel mals!"

"Gern geschehen!" 

[akd]

Good stuff.  Question about WW2 infantry unit OOB's; particularly comparing like units within the same army at different times and different type units against each other at the same times.  There's a conversation at The Few Good Men on what's available and where to find them at the platoon and company level.  Any recommendations?  Thank you.

Best site for comparisons is:

http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com

Edited February 1, 2016 by akd

[Wodin]

For a long time I never split..now I always do as a matter of course. Certainly helps in reducing casualties!

[Michael Emrys]

For a long time I never split..now I always do as a matter of course. Certainly helps in reducing casualties!

In CMx1 I practically never split squads. For good reasons: Split squads took a morale hit. And a half squad just couldn't seem to produce the volume of firepower to accomplish much before they died. From the first in CMx2 I practically always do. The problems I encountered in x1 no longer seem present, and by spreading my men out as teams, I can use more fire and movement while reducing casualties from shells or MGs.

Michael

[domfluff]

I don't know if the morale penalties for splitting squads carry backwards from CMRT (and therefore CMx3), but split teams seem to be more fragile?  Regardless, it's still a great idea, since the purpose of the element is frequently one weapon (e.g., the LMG), so adding more rifles to a Bren gun doesn't make the Bren gun any stronger.

Splitting into teams also allows for finer control in terms of directed fire ("you guys shoot here, you guys shoot *here*"), and fewer casualties in the event of everything exploding.

[Michael Emrys]

Splitting into teams also allows for finer control in terms of directed fire ("you guys shoot here, you guys shoot *here*"...

Right. Good point.

Michael