Red light next to suppression bars

[Vinnart]

So how exactly does a unit get to Broken status?

 

This is as much to the individual person as it is to the pixeltruppen. As with the other factors that can contribute to being brittle such as being out of c2, poor leadership, poor morale to begin with ect.. it is triggered by trauma. We do not get the feeling of emotion from the animations so we can imagine a soldier that has lost it's military bearing and so it's combat effectiveness when "broken". This guy is probably crying, stuttering, shaking, and is an overall mess that just wants to crawl into a hole in the fetal position. He has not much will to fight. A good example if I can draw from cinema is the scene in "The Pacific" when the old Gunny breaks down, and they get him out of there.

[Vanir Ausf B]

 it is triggered by trauma.

 

That goes without saying, but not just any trauma will do. I see lightly wounded sole survivors of exploding AFVs routinely recover from Panic to Rattled rather than Broken.

[Vanir Ausf B]

In my "White Manor" AAR back in 2013, I had an example of a scout team which Panicked from incoming area fire. ( sadly, I was chopping off the UI in the pics, so no proof )

 

I noted in the following turn that : "They are Regular with a -1 morale.

The good news is that the enemy decided to stop firing and sneak down the side of the bocage where they were seen and fired on by #2 scout team. This enabled #1 to recover ( all the way from Shaken to Rattled to Nervous to OK ! )"

 

Can't say I've seen it since, but the ideal circumstances for it to happen are indeed pretty rare.

That is, however, the condition under which I thought the red light ( if it had existed back then ) would have lit up.

 

As it happens I just witnessed this in game. A bailed survivor of a knocked out BMP-3* rallied from Panic to OK. Interestingly, he went straight to OK without passing through the intermediate moral stages. He also rallied much more quickly than normal, about 60 seconds. He did have a +1 Leadership rating and was in C2 of a +2 Leadership HQ.

 

* And if you have ever seen a BMP-3 go up you'll understand that in terms of trauma this guy is on par with Hiroshima survivors.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Vanir Ausf B

[Battlefront.com]

Just chiming in.... the light indicator is there to identify a specific morale penalty that only applies to units that have Broken and then rallied. Such a unit is more likely to have negative morale effects than other units. Without it the player would have no idea that a unit is assessed differently than other units.

It is true that this state isn't seen very often. This is the worst of the worst playable states for a unit to be in, so the unit has to really get pummeled and be in a generally bad state (C2, Leadership, etc.) to get to this level. As noted by others above, units tend to either get wiped out first or neve rally before the game ends. The latter is generally because there's no positive effecti from the chain of command.

Conscript units, bad combat conditions, and bad C2 conditions are the likely combo to see this in action.

Steve

[womble]

This is very different from how Broken was described as working by a member of BFC recently.

 

Can you elucidate what you took from what you were told that is different to what I described? It is, IME, entirely true that you can give Broken troops orders, and that they are squirrelly to a very high degree, often refusing to advance, or even reverting to Shaken, at the very least Cowering, if stray bullets come their way, and almost guaranteed to go to Pinned and Shaken or Panic if fire is actually directed at them, even if it causes no casualties.

 

I can't recall the last time I saw a unit with Broken status in a game in any case, and in that respect the truth of the matter is largely academic.

 

It's a long time since I actually felt the need to use a Broken element, but even being careful you get them from time to time (like when you duck out from under some incoming 81mm, to get to a Touch objective, and fall back from that objective just as the 105s with their longer call time arrive at the point you left... ). And the AI's troops are often very Broken by the time a scenario is ended, so how the Broken troops behave is very relevant.

 

 

 

They are kind-of little "b" brittle in that Rattled is their new ceiling.*

 

Unless it's changed (haven't played any games recently that lasted long enough after the first Shaken troops to see how they rally), that's not how I've seen it working. As Baneman and Ian report, I have definitely seen troops rally from Shaken to states better than Rattled, whether via Broken or not. Not all troops that hit Shaken/Panic go to Broken; some rally back to Rattled.

 

 

 

* IIRC some people have claimed to have seen a Shaken or Panicked unit rally all the way back to OK, but I have not noticed it and it must be quite rare at the least.

I am one of those people. It takes some time (so it has to be a long scenario where some troops get beat up badly near the beginning). It's quicker if they have full C3 tree (or at least some C3 icons in their info pane) for the duration, and they have to be kept out of the line of fire. However, my appreciation of this behaviour is mostly based on observations in v1. The Courage and Fortitude campaign has some long battles that are hot from the get-go... Later releases haven't had scenarios that I've played that have lasted as long nor had initial contacts as vicious, or been as memorable, perhaps. It is entirely possible that things have changed.

 

But if the changes are as described, and only troops which have been Broken are "properly" brittle, the indicator light for Brittleness is pretty redundant.

[womble]

As it happens I just witnessed this in game. A bailed survivor of a knocked out BMP-3* rallied from Panic to OK. Interestingly, he went straight to OK without passing through the intermediate moral stages. He also rallied much more quickly than normal, about 60 seconds. He did have a +1 Leadership rating and was in C2 of a +2 Leadership HQ.

 

* And if you have ever seen a BMP-3 go up you'll understand that in terms of trauma this guy is on par with Hiroshima survivors.

My theory is that morale degradation caused by friendly fire, which would include the case where he got Paniced by the BMP's detonation, having not quite been put there by losing all the rest of his crew and his vehicle (and I think he'd have to have been outside the vehicle at the point of "Boom" to have survived the catastrophe?) is recovered very quickly. Certainly the suppression caused by friendly fire goes away much faster than that caused by enemy fire.

 

Just chiming in.... the light indicator is there to identify a specific morale penalty that only applies to units that have Broken and then rallied. Such a unit is more likely to have negative morale effects than other units. Without it the player would have no idea that a unit is assessed differently than other units.

It is true that this state isn't seen very often. This is the worst of the worst playable states for a unit to be in, so the unit has to really get pummeled and be in a generally bad state (C2, Leadership, etc.) to get to this level. As noted by others above, units tend to either get wiped out first or neve rally before the game ends. The latter is generally because there's no positive effecti from the chain of command.

Conscript units, bad combat conditions, and bad C2 conditions are the likely combo to see this in action.

Steve

Thanks for clarifying that, Steve. I have to say that at least my own clamour for such an indicator light was, I think, based on a misapprehension that Brittle was applied to those who had hit the states of Panic or Shaken and later rallied to Rattled or better. As you say, Broken troops rallying to Rattled or better is rare and I'd say additionally often irrelevant due to the lateness in the scenario and the necessity to keep them well away from any incoming.

Edited August 17, 2015 by womble

[Vanir Ausf B]

Can you elucidate what you took from what you were told that is different to what I described?

 

It was in a beta forum, but to summarize: some people say Broken is a state units rally to, while others say it is a state you rally from (such as in the post directly above yours, not coincidentally). If you can give orders to Broken troops then it is the former.

 

Edited August 17, 2015 by Vanir Ausf B

[Sublime]

broken usuaklly happens when units panic and run and rout until theyre either gunned down or find somewhere relatively quiet for several minutes. if a mouse farts in china theyre gonna flip out tho

[MikeyD]

The Brittle light predates units throwing up their hands and surrendering, I believe. So as the game engine has progressed the opportunity to see the Brittle light in action diminishes. 

[akd]

Just chiming in.... the light indicator is there to identify a specific morale penalty that only applies to units that have Broken and then rallied. Such a unit is more likely to have negative morale effects than other units. Without it the player would have no idea that a unit is assessed differently than other units.

It is true that this state isn't seen very often. This is the worst of the worst playable states for a unit to be in, so the unit has to really get pummeled and be in a generally bad state (C2, Leadership, etc.) to get to this level. As noted by others above, units tend to either get wiped out first or neve rally before the game ends. The latter is generally because there's no positive effecti from the chain of command.

Conscript units, bad combat conditions, and bad C2 conditions are the likely combo to see this in action.

Steve

 

That fact that it is difficult to get a unit to break without destroying it entirely suggests that something may be off with the morale system.  Maybe in the recovery rather than the application of the morale, e.g. unless a unit takes all its losses instantly, it will constantly be recovering enough between casualties that it never actually breaks, although in reality a unit that took massive casualties within a short period of time would almost certainly be considered broken in game terms (i.e. require recovery of more than seconds and be brittle from that point forward).

 

I observed this just now with a green 9-man german squad out of command.  It steadily took casualties from light mortar fire over the course of 2 turns that reduced it to just 3 man, two with light wounds, but despite these appalling losses in a very short period of time, it never broke.  This is superhuman behavior for a green unit.

 

There is definitely room for improvement here, and it has been oft requested.  A long-standing recommendation would be to shift the unit morale effects rightward, i.e. "low" would be "poor" and a new minimum for "poor" would be established. (Or perhaps do so only on higher difficulty levels.)

Edited August 17, 2015 by akd

[akd]

The Brittle light predates units throwing up their hands and surrendering, I believe. So as the game engine has progressed the opportunity to see the Brittle light in action diminishes. 

 

No, that is not the case.

[Vinnart]

I think the system is fine as is. I get units that break sometimes, and others that don't.There is nothing that says that a person must break after witness severe trauma. If this was the case then most units that have seen some rough combat in reality would have mostly broken men and this is not the case. As it is now units seem to get to Rattled easy enough. I think too many broken units breaking too easy would effect game play in a negative way.

.

[Battlefront.com]

It was in a beta forum, but to summarize: some people say Broken is a state units rally to, while others say it is a state you rally from (such as in the post directly above yours, not coincidentally). If you can give orders to Broken troops then it is the former.

 

It's been a while since I was in the guts of this, but I'm sure it is rally from. Meaning, your unit is Broken... it behaves like utter crap. Might not even do what you ask it to do. If you rally it the Broken status is removed, meaning it functions more-or-less normally. HOWEVER, the unit is now Brittle and that means it can return to a really bad Morale state very, very easily. Which is why it has a special indicator. Otherwise if a Broken unit rallied it would look like every other unit and therefore you'd have to remember the unit isn't going to behave the same. And that's silly

Think about it this way. A Panicked unit is in a temporary state of shock, a Broken one is way beyond that. Both can rally, but the Broken one is permanently damaged (aka Brittle). The indicator light reminds you of that fact. A Brittle unit should be withdrawn from combat to avoid giving your opponent a higher score.

 

That fact that it is difficult to get a unit to break without destroying it entirely suggests that something may be off with the morale system.  Maybe in the recovery rather than the application of the morale, e.g. unless a unit takes all its losses instantly, it will constantly be recovering enough between casualties that it never actually breaks, although in reality a unit that took massive casualties within a short period of time would almost certainly be considered broken in game terms (i.e. require recovery of more than seconds and be brittle from that point forward).

 

I observed this just now with a green 9-man german squad out of command.  It steadily took casualties from light mortar fire over the course of 2 turns that reduced it to just 3 man, two with light wounds, but despite these appalling losses in a very short period of time, it never broke.  This is superhuman behavior for a green unit.

 

There is definitely room for improvement here, and it has been oft requested.  A long-standing recommendation would be to shift the unit morale effects rightward, i.e. "low" would be "poor" and a new minimum for "poor" would be established. (Or perhaps do so only on higher difficulty levels.)

Sounds like Beta Testers should open up a discussion and start documenting specific places where change might be a good thing To me it simply sounds like the "weights" might need some tweaking.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

I think the system is fine as is. I get units that break sometimes, and others that don't.There is nothing that says that a person must break after witness severe trauma. If this was the case then most units that have seen some rough combat in reality would have mostly broken men and this is not the case. As it is now units seem to get to Rattled easy enough. I think too many broken units breaking too easy would effect game play in a negative way.

.

Excellent point. I meant to make it myself

Basically, you guys are buying our wargames in order to play them. If we make the ramifications of combat too harsh too quickly, then we wind up with a game that simulates first contact and then effectively shuts the game down for an hour or two until one or the other side can get it's stuff pulled together.

While we do not want to make units unrealistically resilient, we do have to be cautious of having them be too prone to failure.

Steve

[womble]

The Brittle light predates units throwing up their hands and surrendering, I believe. So as the game engine has progressed the opportunity to see the Brittle light in action diminishes. 

No, no it doesn't. Surrendering has been in since BN v1.

 

 

It's been a while since I was in the guts of this, but I'm sure it is rally from. Meaning, your unit is Broken... it behaves like utter crap. Might not even do what you ask it to do. If you rally it the Broken status is removed, meaning it functions more-or-less normally. HOWEVER, the unit is now Brittle and that means it can return to a really bad Morale state very, very easily. Which is why it has a special indicator. Otherwise if a Broken unit rallied it would look like every other unit and therefore you'd have to remember the unit isn't going to behave the same. And that's silly

Think about it this way. A Panicked unit is in a temporary state of shock, a Broken one is way beyond that. Both can rally, but the Broken one is permanently damaged (aka Brittle). The indicator light reminds you of that fact. A Brittle unit should be withdrawn from combat to avoid giving your opponent a higher score.

 

 

I think of it thus: Panic (or Shaken) is a worse state (though temporary) than Broken. The unit is running around (or sitting still) doing its own thing, out of control. So going from that to Broken is an improvement, and the time it takes to recover from the out-of-control state is modified by C2, motivation and possibly other things that affect "rally speed", so I think of the transition from Panic/Shaken to another state as "rallying". Sometimes (if the event which precipitated the out of control state is grievous, or the troops have low motivation and other factors), they rally to Broken, other times (better troops, lesser insult) they rally to Rattled. Either Broken or Rattled admits further rallying, but if the unit has ever been Broken, it will always be Brittle.

 

System is fine, comprehensible. Indicator is a fair bit less useful than I thought it was.

[MOS:96B2P]

<Snip>   the time it takes to recover from the out-of-control state is modified by C2, motivation and possibly other things that affect "rally speed"  <Snip>

 

This makes sense and is how I imagined it worked.  However I think the below from Steve is saying C2 does not help to rally a unit that is brittle?     

 

<Snip>  the unit has to really get pummeled and be in a generally bad state (C2, Leadership, etc.) to get to this level. As noted by others above, units tend to either get wiped out first or neve rally before the game ends. The latter is generally because there's no positive effecti from the chain of command. <Snip>

 

So once a unit becomes brittle (the light goes on in the UI) is there any benefit attempting to keep this brittle unit in C2?   

[Bud Backer]

This makes sense and is how I imagined it worked.  However I think the below from Steve is saying C2 does not help to rally a unit that is brittle?     

 

 

I believe you're misunderstanding him. He told me in another conversation that I really needed to keep my men in C2 to assist with the rallying. What I understood he was referring to in the quote you posted above was that units out of C2 and having superiors with bad leadership modifiers will make the rallying more difficult, and take longer. 

Edited August 18, 2015 by Bud_B

[MOS:96B2P]

I believe you're misunderstanding him. He told me in another conversation that I really needed to keep my men in C2 to assist with the rallying. What I understood he was referring to in the quote you posted above was that units out of C2 and having superiors with bad leadership modifiers will make the rallying more difficult, and take longer. 

 

Okay then, good.  All is right with the world.  I try hard to keep my troops in C2 and like to think it is the right thing to do.   

[Battlefront.com]

Yeah, C2 is very important for a unit in any state. Good C2 helps prevent things from going in a bad direction in the first place, then helps repair things if things do go badly. A Brittle unit can never be improved, with C2 or without. However, with good C2 a Brittle unit might fare better under further stress than without C2.

Steve

[womble]

I read Steve's comment as reflective of the common case that a Broken element has either had its command links vapourised (possibly in the same incident that Broke it) or has been left way behind because it's no use, so doesn't have access to any C2 functions that might remain.

 

Which suggests an additional use for the Battalion Commander: baby sitting the broken elements to get them back to a slightly better morale state so they can maybe be sent back to their PltHQ to act as firebase elements at least, somewhat sooner than they would be useful without his calming influence.

[Bud Backer]

Okay then, good.  All is right with the world.  I try hard to keep my troops in C2 and like to think it is the right thing to do.

After your stellar work showing radios & C2, Spotting & C2, XOs & C2, I would be flabbergasted if you didn't make C2 a priority.

[Battlefront.com]

Okay then, good.  All is right with the world.  I try hard to keep my troops in C2 and like to think it is the right thing to do.

Knowledge is power

I read Steve's comment as reflective of the common case that a Broken element has either had its command links vapourised (possibly in the same incident that Broke it) or has been left way behind because it's no use, so doesn't have access to any C2 functions that might remain.

Often that is the case. I think it's uncommon for a single isolated unit to get so beat up that it becomes Brittle. More likely the Brittle unit is the lone, or close to it, survivor of formation that got decimated. Which definitely hinders rallying.

 

Which suggests an additional use for the Battalion Commander: baby sitting the broken elements to get them back to a slightly better morale state so they can maybe be sent back to their PltHQ to act as firebase elements at least, somewhat sooner than they would be useful without his calming influence.

My SOP is to take shattered units, Brittle or not, and place them defensively around a senior command element. At the very least they provide some measure of increased protection for it. In desperate defensive situations it can even make a difference just like in real life. We've all read accounts of a couple of supply guys mixed in with some HQ personnel and a smattering of line infantry and ammoless weapons crews holding some critical position just long enough for it to matter.

Steve

[sburke]

My SOP is to take shattered units, Brittle or not, and place them defensively around a senior command element. At the very least they provide some measure of increased protection for it. In desperate defensive situations it can even make a difference just like in real life. We've all read accounts of a couple of supply guys mixed in with some HQ personnel and a smattering of line infantry and ammoless weapons crews holding some critical position just long enough for it to matter.

Steve

Gamey bastiche!!!!    Just kidding