ASL Veteran Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 (edited) I think the point is not that you need pro apps and skills. Rather, the current briefing system is set up so that you must include something or your scenario takes an immediate credibility hit. Add to that that the bar is always getting higher in terms of the quality of the briefing graphics being produced by the community and what this adds up to is that a lot of people who would otherwise be making quality scenarios are not--because the additional time and effort to package the scenario is prohibitive to them. No one wants their scenario to scream "amateur" out of the gate, even if it is in fact, a first-class scenario design in terms of the battle content itself. I think it would be better to move graphics to optional sections that only appear if they are included (and I know how to make presentable graphics in PS, BTW). For example, like with the current features like Designer's Notes and Tactical Maps, if you want to include cover art, then have that section appear at the top. If the scenario designer doesn't want to include it, then have that box not appear at all, rather than have an empty graphic box to call attention to the lack of a graphic. Make the briefing screen structured so that having no graphics at all doesn't make it look unfinished. I agree with this assessment. It isn't an issue with official scenarios because one skilled person is creating all the graphics for everyone, but if you are out there creating something on your own then I can definitely see someone viewing this as a bar to uploading something. The other thing for me is simply the motivation factor. I create a lot of very large maps and after spending the time to create the overlay and set the map dimensions in the editor I will then frequently go into 3D mode and just view the map for a bit to get a better feel for its size. I have to say that looking at that massive flat blank green rectangle with the clouds floating over head can sometimes be a motivation killer all on its own. Creating QB maps should be much simpler to do and to some extent I'm a little surprised more people aren't creating QB maps. It would also be a great place to start for new scenario designers since they could hone their map making skills without needing to worry about briefings and where the AI plans have to be as simple as possible. I'm guessing that those who would be the most interested in QB maps probably would rather just play on them rather than make them and those who would be interested in making maps would probably rather be making scenario maps rather than QB maps. Edited to add that in my opinion one of the biggest time savers would be if an 'estimated arrival time' could be added by the editor to each AI waypoint location that you paint on the map. That would shave hours of time off of AI plan creation for me because as it is now I have to physically run the plan through its paces in order to figure out when a certain formation will reach any given AI waypoint. If the game is giving me that information in advance then I can spend more time on the actual mechanics of the AI plan rather than trying to figure out where everyone will be at a given point in time. Edited February 7, 2015 by ASL Veteran 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted February 7, 2015 Author Share Posted February 7, 2015 Hopefully this is where Kohlenklau is on to something GOOD with his SCENARIO FACTORY idea.... Instead of doing all these things solo...Why not join forces with a few others and do a small part... Some like mapmaking, some like briefingdesign and others are more skilled when it comes to AI-planning... And almost all can help out with playtesting...Getting instant feedback ! Being a group working together problems that come up can be discussed and hopefully solved together...sharing of ideas... I think this is i brilliant initiativ and might very well be the way forward... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kohlenklau Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Based on what ASL said and what JonS has said previously in his threads, BFC seems clearly to be the ultimate scenario factory. Players enjoy those top quality stock scenarios and campaigns because the designers are experienced/skilled with the editor and don't forget the dedicated playtesters (taking breaks from their other jobs as male models). Top that off with a uniform briefing graphics template that the main scenario/campaign designer does not have to be so worried about. One less headache for him/(her? ). Already in this thread I PM'd a friendly offer to some folks to help with their briefing/images. No replies. Some people maybe don't like to work as a team, I am not sure... Combatintman has great images that I think are well suited for the modern flavor of CMBS. IMHO the Tom Clancy style stuff does not go as well with WW2. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desertor Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I would like to try a joint venture for battle makers, I don't like the briefing part, but maps I can do, and some AI planning too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenris Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Ctrl+z to undo would be useful too. -F 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heirloom_Tomato Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 One of the problems I ran into with the editor is scope. I was trying to make large battles and they did not really turn out so well. I kind of had fun playing them but not so much. Over the last little while I have dropped my scope down considerably and I find I can make a small battle that is much more fun and I can seem to get the AI to do what I want it to do. I made a UKR special forces vs Russians on a QB map I chopped up to suit my needs. The battle is 250*208 in size and features about 30 UKR elite troops taking on about 3 times as many lower quality Russians. I have sent kohlenklau a request for help with the graphics and after he has checked them out/ helped me improve them I will need a play tester or two. Any takers? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kohlenklau Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) No problem Matt. I will take a look and see how I can improve them. Edited February 8, 2015 by kohlenklau 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelican Pal Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 I personally feel that designing QB maps is harder than straight up scenarios. Getting the AI to do intelligent things when you have no idea what it will be is a time consuming process to say the least. Also, if I intend on spending a lot of time on something a QB scenario just doesn't sound very appealing. It is oddly lifeless. At least from the designer perspective. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Sorry if I'm repeating myself, but its really not as hard as some people are making out. Just go into the editor right now and do something- then the next time you go in it'll be more familiar, and the next, and the next. Many of the comments seem to be equivalent to Driver's Ed students wanting to drive the NASCAR circuit. Don't be so ambitious. Before competing in the Daytona 500 maybe you should practice up shifting and parallel parking first. Small short scenarios with few forces and simple AI movement orders. Once those become easy to do move to the next step. There's no test, there's no pressure, the whole point is to enjoy yourself - and then share. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kohlenklau Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) I don't have CMBS and know diddly about modern warfare symbology and such but Heirloom is my buddy so I gave it a go. Switched to some green color and fonts to jazz it up a bit. He had a photo and some badges and after 5 minutes we have this. And we move on! Uh oh. Those badges look awful familiar. Maybe they are both for his special team? And I need a new north arrow type device. His map aspect ratio didn't fill the entire TacMap rectangle so I had him send me a photo. Never stretch the map to fit! It gets super ugly. Combatintman says he does his images on powerpoint. Which is readily available. So you all should best emulate his style from a link on a post a few posts back in this thread. Edited February 8, 2015 by kohlenklau 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelican Pal Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Something I would like to see, and I think would help scenario designers a lot, would be for BFC to include at least one max size map that has generic terrain for the area. Making a map totally from scratch is a difficult and time consuming thing to do, but adding your own touches to a already complete map can make very interesting scenarios on good looking maps very quickly. CM:RT had master maps which I found very useful and am a little dissapointed they aren't present in CM:BS. I think the biggest map in the game right now is "Valley of Death" which isn't particularly useful outside of the scenario it was designed for, 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astano Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 One of the problems I ran into with the editor is scope. I was trying to make large battles and they did not really turn out so well. I kind of had fun playing them but not so much. Over the last little while I have dropped my scope down considerably and I find I can make a small battle that is much more fun and I can seem to get the AI to do what I want it to do. I made a UKR special forces vs Russians on a QB map I chopped up to suit my needs. The battle is 250*208 in size and features about 30 UKR elite troops taking on about 3 times as many lower quality Russians. I have sent kohlenklau a request for help with the graphics and after he has checked them out/ helped me improve them I will need a play tester or two. Any takers? PM sent if you still need a tester. I am also in the testing phase of a scenario I'm working on, if anyone's interested feel free to shoot me a PM. US Bradley platoon vs. Russian dismounted infantry, original 800x800 map. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 ...would be for BFC to include at least one max size map that has generic terrain for the area. There's a huge pile of large-to-huge QB maps that can be repurposed for scenarios with little extra effort. I vaguely recall the CMRT demo 'Monster Mash' started out as a repurposed map. A few changes here, a few changes there, and it became unrecognizable from the original. Just moving a few village houses from the left to the right side of the road and changing the victory locations can entirely alter the gameplay experience on a map. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macisle Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) There's a huge pile of large-to-huge QB maps that can be repurposed for scenarios with little extra effort. I vaguely recall the CMRT demo 'Monster Mash' started out as a repurposed map. A few changes here, a few changes there, and it became unrecognizable from the original. Just moving a few village houses from the left to the right side of the road and changing the victory locations can entirely alter the gameplay experience on a map. I've got a few of these spread across the CM titles (mostly in Red Thunder). I'm actually thinking about starting a series called Spit & Sawdust that will be using all repurposed QB maps with very short briefings that fit on one page and contain no briefing graphics. The idea is to basically make enhanced QBs that can be put out pretty quickly and require a minimum of effort. I'm playtesting SnS-1, which has a company of Ukr infantry in BTR-70s taking a town back from a group of separatists in Digicam uniforms, supported by Russian reinforcements arriving during the game. If I do go live with the series (or just this one), I'll probably only put them on GAJ's website, since it doesn't have a rating system. There is always some joker who is going to give a single star because there are no briefing graphics, etc. Oh, in doing this, I just twigged that the vending machines in CMBS are Japanese. I can recognize the drinks! Edited February 10, 2015 by Macisle 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelican Pal Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 There's a huge pile of large-to-huge QB maps that can be repurposed for scenarios with little extra effort. I vaguely recall the CMRT demo 'Monster Mash' started out as a repurposed map. A few changes here, a few changes there, and it became unrecognizable from the original. Just moving a few village houses from the left to the right side of the road and changing the victory locations can entirely alter the gameplay experience on a map. Ah okay. The listing QBs within the editor is a bit of a mess and I wasn't able to find anything particularly large maps. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kohlenklau Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 This is my recommended method for "map shopping" I call it. Open editor and open any QB, start at the first one? Then mouse down to the "map tab" and the 2D view opens (the "map editor") and you can see the listed dimensions of the map and 5 magnification levels for the map. Pick the zoom level in the middle. Then each time you hit load and select a new QB it already is there at the 2D view in "map tab", you can see the dimensions in the upper right and you can quickly scan through many for something that looks promising for tweaking. Then save it under a new name first! Then tweak away and have fun. (But if you ever upload it, just use the proper etiquette and put in your designer's notes to recognize that it was originally a stock QB by BFC personnel. ) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heirloom_Tomato Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) Pm sent astano. Edited February 10, 2015 by Heirloom_Tomato 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macisle Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I just noticed that Chris has provided the official briefing graphic Photoshop template files as a download from the Repository. That is a huge help. Thanks, Chris! Link 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philipp Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I just started looking into scenario design after years of playing SF and BN. Wanted to start easy by ising a quick battle map but could not find what I wanted. So now I am trying to make a map, lets see where that goes. One suggestion I have would be to add an importer for elevation from some public dat source, like Google Maps. There is a tool called SketchUp that has this feature. You can see it in action here: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y4J9sWEZR6E 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPC922 Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 After being a long time player and reading through this forum, I too have taken the leap into creating a simple map and learning the basics. Obviously right off the bat, it would be fantastic if a realtime 3D map can be worked on. Most importantly, I have yet to wrap my head around AI programming and triggers. Granted, I have limited experience and I know with time and patience I can produce something of value. However, I will say that increasing user friendliness can only be a positive step forward, resources permitting. There have been some interesting suggestions on how to improve the editor and I can only hope that it receives a nice retooling in the future. Maybe we will just have to wait until the next game engine for the changes the community would like to see to be even remotely possible? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macisle Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 After being a long time player and reading through this forum, I too have taken the leap into creating a simple map and learning the basics. Obviously right off the bat, it would be fantastic if a realtime 3D map can be worked on. Most importantly, I have yet to wrap my head around AI programming and triggers. Granted, I have limited experience and I know with time and patience I can produce something of value. However, I will say that increasing user friendliness can only be a positive step forward, resources permitting. There have been some interesting suggestions on how to improve the editor and I can only hope that it receives a nice retooling in the future. Maybe we will just have to wait until the next game engine for the changes the community would like to see to be even remotely possible? If you choose a map and scenario idea that allow for it, you can create a great scenario where the enemy just DIP ("die in place"). That way, you can skip the AI Plan part of things and spend all your time setting up devilish ambush and mutual support positions for the enemy troops. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philipp Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 After working a bit more with the editor I would say that the lack of copy paste within a map and between maps is a real problem. If you flesh out part of a map and then realize you would want to move it by two squares to the right, that is very frustrating. I guess the solution to that is to work down from the big picture to the small detail instead of say north to south. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 If you choose a map and scenario idea that allow for it, you can create a great scenario where the enemy just DIP ("die in place"). That way, you can skip the AI Plan part of things and spend all your time setting up devilish ambush and mutual support positions for the enemy troops. I have made a few of these in the past and they can most certanly be fun to play. Its a very good place to start with your 'scenario building career' i think... 1. A good QB map 2. Well placed STATIC ai defences 3. some playtesting 4. Finished scenario.... There does not even have to be a very complicated breifingscreen imo. Some written text to explain the situation and mission goals... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stagler Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I just noticed that Chris has provided the official briefing graphic Photoshop template files as a download from the Repository. That is a huge help. Thanks, Chris! Link Chris, thanks for sorting this request. Top bloke. Cheers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPC922 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I will definitely try the static defense as my first initial scenario! Hopefully you all will give it a shot and I can only wish it will at least give you some trouble 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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