Backstory events sliding toward Nonfiction

[Chops]

As others have stated on the Forum, BFC has really produced a fascinating and very well done simulation of a modern Eastern European conflict.  However, I am feeling a strong sense of unease while playing CM:BS due to the very disturbing fact that the CM:BS storyline is quickly merging with reality.

 

From the Game Manual on Pg. 4

 

"War in real life is a terrible, horrible thing that should only be embarked upon as an absolute last resort. Combat Mission: Black Sea is thankfully still a fictional story, and likely to remain so unless our global leaders and populace collectively lose their minds. The stories that will be created within this game can serve as a grim reminder of the human cost incurred when diplomacy and decency fail."

 

Maybe BFC will consider sending a few free copies of CM:BS to the "leaders" involved in the current situation.

 

Here is an interesting discussion of recent events:  http://www.democracynow.org/2015/2/3/is_ukraine_a_proxy_western_Russia

 

 

[dan/california]

Horrifying and true!

[ikalugin]

The back story has already slid into the alternative history category, as the separatists were not crashed in 2014, nor does it look like they would be crashed any time soon. In fact if the current dynamic goes on (expansion of the separatist forces) such military victory would be impossible for the Kiev government without some extensive direct external support.

 

Hence, in my opinion, the conflict would develop differently from what the current vanilla scenario has envisioned.

[Der Zeitgeist]

I am feeling a strong sense of unease while playing CM:BS due to the very disturbing fact that the CM:BS storyline is quickly merging with reality.

 

My feelings exactly. I finished the training campaign, but I probably won't continue with any actual campaign at this point, because the whole setting just feels too dark and foreboding right now.

It's the whole authenticity of the game that just feels troubling in a certain context. I felt the same when I first started playing CMSF in 2007. It was just like watching news coverage from the Battle of Fallujah or the Lebanon War.

 

I still have a lot of CMSF modules to play through, so there's enough fighting to do until hopefully things cool down in Ukraine.

[Nerdwing]

I agree with ikalugin.  The key divergence (the 2014 cessation of the uprising) really removes any relevance to reality, aside from geographic location.

[agusto]

I disagree. The game is set in 2017 and a lot of time will have to pass before we can say that this crisis is over. Ukraine is currently in the process of partially mobilizing its armed forces, aiming to double their strengh in 2015 from approximately 250.000 to 500.000. New conscripts are called to arms every day and those currently serving are not allowed to leave military at the end of their service term. US have started to officially discuss delivering arms to the Kiev government. It looks like Kiev could have a chance to defeat the rebels in 2015 or 2016, forcing Putin to make the choice between a more direct commitment and abandoning the seperatists. I think that this thing is far from over. Reality might not follow the games backstory to the letter, but right at the moment i think it is still entirely within the reason of possibility that in 2017 we will see M1A2s and T-90s slugging it out in eastern Ukraine.

Edited February 3, 2015 by agusto

[silent one]

Its only a game. Not the focus of a think tank.

[ikalugin]

Agusto, the mobilisation is failing and I don't think that they would be able to expand further than 250k VSU strength.

However considering the separatists expansion, the forces ratios are not going to change even with the VSU expansion to 500k. Considering how "well" VSU performed in the recent times I doubt that this expansion would help (quite on the contrary - it would increase the burden on the country).

Edited February 4, 2015 by ikalugin

[Battlefront.com]

Remember that we wrote this backstory starting in 2009 and "finalized" it in 2013/2014 before war started.  We deliberately made very few changes to the storyline since the war started almost one year ago.  We did not want to make a game that was directly based on current events, even though obviously the similarities are fundamentally the same.

 

The catalyst for the large scale war in Black Sea's backstory was based on one thing more than anything... Russia pushing in a "peace keeping" force to "restore order" and "protect Russians" in Ukraine.  In actual fact Russia was poised to do this, but in the end decided it wasn't a good idea since Ukraine said it would be treated as an act of war.  I am sure the Western leaders told Russia they openly support Ukraine with weapons and other assistance if Russia wen that far.  As a result, the Russian forces with peace keeping markings on their vehicles did not move into Ukraine overtly.

 

If Russia had ignored these warnings and had inserted its "peace keepers" I think events since then would look more like Black Sea's backstory than what has actually happened.

 

Steve

[sburke]

well there is still time.  Putin doesn't appear to have gotten any smarter. 

[Battlefront.com]

I would have to go back and see some of the earlier versions, but looking over the current version again... really, the only significant thing we changed was the first paragraph.  From memory the original story had in its place for 2016:

 

1.  A new government took power in Kiev that drove out the pro-Russian control

2.  Several policies Russia was opposed to were implemented (these were left in the story)

3.  The final "straw" was the nullification of the Sevastopol agreement that Yanukovych pushed through

4.  Russia activated its sympathizers and agents in Crimea and eastern/southern Ukraine

5.  This culminated in several armed conflicts and at least one major "incident" (we had a "terrorist" blast on a gas pipeline)

6.  Open armed conflict started on a large scale in Crimea and eastern Ukraine

7.  Russia put in its "peace keepers" to supposedly protect Russian speaking citizens from harm

 

Or something like that

 

Since 1-4 actually happened BEFORE our stated timeframe, we had to work it in.  It would make no sense to have Russia invade Crimea in 2016, would it?

 

Steve

[ChrisND]

The very, very early versions of the storyline (before the government change in Ukraine) focused around a new pro-Western government taking hold in Kiev that essentially defies the the Sevastopol lease and causes trouble in Crimea, which inflamed separatist sentiments and started a mess in Crimea and Donbass. Then the rest of the storyline followed from that. After the actual events in Ukraine happened, I modified the beginning of the storyline to account for current events. Other than that, the storyline has essentially stayed as it is.

 

And as someone said: yep, not a think tank scenario. To try doing something like that would be a waste of my time. The story is there to support the game, not the other way around. Everything supports the needs of Combat Mission's tactical battlefield scope.

[Sashko]

Would BFC alternate timelines ever include Gorka wearing uncons or at least the Russian army recce/ GRU troops in Gorka to use as uncons?  Especially when the real life version are not just the typical light infantry but have the full assortment of kit and proper structure, making them simply the most awesome uncon force ever for CM purposes? A sort of a qualitative bridge between RuAF and UkrAF for those of us who want to keep it realistic or are generally not too interested in playing with the NATO kit in the equation

[ChrisND]

By the way, it's worth mentioning...

 

There's a much more detailed version of the storyline I wrote in development. 17 pages or so instead of 3. Operational instead of strategic level detail. It was meant for inspiration for campaign and scenario designers, as a framework for scenario designers to create scenarios within. After the game launch craziness subsides, I'll tidy it up a bit and put it on the Repository so that scenario designers can use it as a base for making more campaigns and scenario if they want to stay within the "official story" (not that I actually care if people stay within the official story, hah!).

 

Chris

[Na Vaske]

As a side to Shasko's post, are what is being described as 'UnCon' really 'UnCon' ? I was under the impression this term meant ununiformed fighters fighting a guerrilla/insurgency campaign.  The forces being described are uniformed militia fighting a fairly conventional war with lines and territory being taken and lost.  In Shock Force there was a difference between Syrian Militia and UnCon.  But as is true this game is not modeled after the real situation.

 

I'm interested to read the 17 page document though! 

[Sashko]

As a side to Shasko's post, are what is being described as 'UnCon' really 'UnCon' ? I was under the impression this term meant ununiformed fighters fighting a guerrilla/insurgency campaign.  The forces being described are uniformed militia fighting a fairly conventional war with lines and territory being taken and lost.  In Shock Force there was a difference between Syrian Militia and UnCon.  But as is true this game is not modeled after the real situation.

 

I'm interested to read the 17 page document though! 

 

 

 

 

I dunno if you played the epic Red vs Red Hasrabbit and Perdition campaigns for CMSF, but both were the perfect executions of well equipped and organized "uncon/rebels/separatists" vs regular army scenario (and coincidentally the most fun I've had with CM series since Beyond Overlord).  

[Der Zeitgeist]

By the way, it's worth mentioning...

 

There's a much more detailed version of the storyline I wrote in development. 17 pages or so instead of 3. Operational instead of strategic level detail. It was meant for inspiration for campaign and scenario designers, as a framework for scenario designers to create scenarios within. After the game launch craziness subsides, I'll tidy it up a bit and put it on the Repository so that scenario designers can use it as a base for making more campaigns and scenario if they want to stay within the "official story" (not that I actually care if people stay within the official story, hah!).

 

Chris

 

That would be great!

 

I always enjoyed reading the various background campaign info and maps from CMSF. 

[ikalugin]

That operational level scenario may be interesting, especially considering the likelyhood of me dropping mine.

[Skinfaxi]

The catalyst for the large scale war in Black Sea's backstory was based on one thing more than anything... Russia pushing in a "peace keeping" force to "restore order" and "protect Russians" in Ukraine.  In actual fact Russia was poised to do this, but in the end decided it wasn't a good idea since Ukraine said it would be treated as an act of war.

 

The conflict did start in Ukraine?

 

• In 1989 Russia accepted the German reuinification. For that to happen they had to withdraw their troops and NATO promised not to expand torwards Russia. Interestingly the Russians withdrew their troops but US and UK occupation troops stayed in Germany. Also no peace treaty with Germany has been signed.

Fact is, the Russians also disbanded the Warshaw Pact. NATO was not disbanded.

 

Afterwards NATO broke all promises it had given to Russia and has been expanding since. Isn't it strange, that NATO was not disbanded, too, since the reason for it's foundation, the Communist empire, had disappeared?

 

• NATO expansion (in western media it is even called enlargement, not expansion) since 1989 torwards Russia:

 

Poland

Hungary

Czech Republic

Estonia

Latvia

Lithuania

Slovakia

Bulgaria

Slovenia

Rumania

Albania

Croatia

 

Further expansion planned torwards

Cyprus

Makedonia

Bosnia Herzegowina

Montenegro

 

• Victoria Nuland is the wife of radical Zionist Robert Kagan, who founded the zionist lobby organization PNAC (Project for the New American Century), a leading force behind the Iraq war. For a few years now, Kagan's Zionist warmonger friends have been lobbying for another US wars: their new "Foreign Policy Initiative" has been lobbying for attacking Syria and Iran. His wife Victoria Nuland admitted that the USA had spent 5 BILLION dollars for the coup in Ukraine!

That's also clearly a hostile act against a souvereign country (Ukraine) and a breach of international law!

 

• A leaked telephone call between Catherine Ashton and a Baltic minister showed, that the EU knew, that in Ukraine on Maidan very strange things happened, and that certain forces were shooting at both sides to make them clash. Israeli soldiers even openly bragged for leading militant groups on Maidan.

 

• This video is extremely elightening to understand how blatantly Western mainstream media and politicians turned things upside down when they reported about the protests in Ukraine:

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=E18jWXbZY8U

 

 

• Recently the US foreign minister John Kerry admitted, that the USA had to force and blackmail the EU to support the economic warfare against Russia.

 

• American politicians are openly admitting they want a regime change in Russia. Is that friendly? That's also against international law.

 

• Even after Putin's first term, the Russians under Medvedev were still naive enough to fall victim to this trick:

 

 

 

And they allowed the aggression against and destruction of Lybia to happen.

 

• Who is the betrayer and aggressor?

 

 

 

• And last but not least the shooting down of MH17 which was blamed on Russia by Western media and politicians without offering the slightest evidences. By looking closer to the downing of MH17 many strange facts are coming to light. I find it strange, that you, as interested and well informed about modern weaponry, did not notice, that a BUG system consists of three vehicles and needs months of training of specialists.

 

 

This story was not only spread in Ukraine but hugely in the EU, too:

 

https://magazin.spiegel.de/EpubDelivery/image/title/SP/2014/31/300

 

 

 

 

I can not understand, how anyone who takes a closer look at the developments in Ukraine can believe in the mainstream media narrative.

 

 

That things in the area could become dangerous was not that hard to recognize with some basic knowledge about NATO aggression and the status of Sevastopol in the Black Sea.

 

ps: I am sorry, somehow I cannot make certain links to appear as the others

Edited February 4, 2015 by Skinfaxi

[Na Vaske]

Sigh. This was a good thread. Please don't let it get locked.

[agusto]

The truth is that the reptilians from alpha centauri are behind everything. Didnt you know?

[ikalugin]

Ain't even me.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

Its only a game. Not the focus of a think tank.

 

For now. But this is avery educational game

[Stagler]

The truth is that the reptilians from alpha centauri are behind everything. Didnt you know?

 

So I frequently hear. They must be a pretty busy and productive bunch of reptilian masters.

[antaress73]

Anyway, none of it will happen. Unless the West miscalculates badly. A conventional war between Russia and NATO is impossible. It's either economic warfare or proxy warfare or Nuclear annihilation for all involved. War between nuclear powers is a fallacy. Especially considering the Russian soul. They are not afraid to die beautifully. In fact, dying without submitting is the most beautiful death of all in Russian culture. You have to take that into account. They are very spiritual and there is a revival presently. If you don't, they will bring you down with them. That's fact. Like it or not. Not all people in the world are soulless consumers that will do anything to survive, including selling their dignity. 

 

Face with the choice of becoming again a submissive colony of the West or Nuclear death, they will choose nuclear death, for ALL. Dont worry, when it happens, the West will grumble but it will back down, they like their survival too much So no war but plenty of bad feelings. Bad feelings dont kill. You will never get the Russians to assimilate into western culture completely. And the same goes for a lot of other nations in the world. But most of them don't have enough Nuclear weapons to turn the West into a glassy parking lot. Leaving EASTERN Ukraine to the Russian sphere is the thing to do. They are not interested in western Ukraine. They are more than ready to leave those crackpots into our hands Ideals themselves are peaceful, History is violent, especially when mixed with Ideals. Ask Henry Kissinger, the best mastermind of international politics that the US ever had. 

Edited February 4, 2015 by antaress73