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Please guys...Fire your rockets !


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Hello...

 

What is the best way to get my infantry to fire their hand held rockets (at other things then enemy armour...) ?

 

I have played a few of the smaller scenarios (as americans) and i don't think that i have ever seen my squads using their AT4s (or javelins) to area-target enemy- or suspected enemy buildings.

 

IRL that is pretty common...Is it not ? In MOUT fighting...

 

 

Perhaps a FIRE ROCKET target-order could be something to wish for...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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on the Russian side they have purpose made rockets for the RPG-7 and the RPO launchers i think the US not using their AT-4's is to prevent a unit from expending all of its AT assets on the first building with contact in it.  In the high armour threat environment this war is taking place in one could expect they would be saved for armored targets.

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on the Russian side they have purpose made rockets for the RPG-7 and the RPO launchers i think the US not using their AT-4's is to prevent a unit from expending all of its AT assets on the first building with contact in it.  In the high armour threat environment this war is taking place in one could expect they would be saved for armored targets.

Is this why my javelin armed troops wont fire on structures?

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OK...That makes kind of sence...But there are many situations where no enemy armour are likely to show up...In situations like that a weapon like the AT4 could be very useful for other things...

 

By the way...

 

Does the US army not use the Carl Gustav ? I have seen a number of youtube clips of them practicing with it...and now there is a smaller, lighter version of that weapon...

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Usually giving normal target order encourages units to use their rockets even on infantry targets. In one company-vs-company size custom battle I saw Javelins being fired at enemy infantry at least four times. I think units are also less likely to use their last AT weapons on infantry targets.

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I think it was said previously (maybe in one of ChrisND's streams?) that they adjusted the TacAI behavior to make it less likely, but not impossible, to fire AT weapons at infantry targets.  Although now that I write that, I think it may have been in reference to vehicle-mounted ATGMs rather than infantry weapons.

 

 

 

OK...That makes kind of sence...But there are many situations where no enemy armour are likely to show up...In situations like that a weapon like the AT4 could be very useful for other things...

 

By the way...

 

Does the US army not use the Carl Gustav ? I have seen a number of youtube clips of them practicing with it...and now there is a smaller, lighter version of that weapon...

 

I didn't think so - they've been in use with USSOCOM and US Army Rangers for some time but not with the regular Army - but apparently it's been selected for more widespread use in light infantry units.

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I think it was said previously (maybe in one of ChrisND's streams?) that they adjusted the TacAI behavior to make it less likely, but not impossible, to fire AT weapons at infantry targets.  Although now that I write that, I think it may have been in reference to vehicle-mounted ATGMs rather than infantry weapons.

 

We also adjusted it down with many infantry AT systems when used against non-vehicle targets. In the early stages of Alpha the infantry and other vehicles used the behavior previously seen in Combat Mission, where they'd fire off pretty much anything they had at targets. The result was infantry dumping their AT weapons against infantry and not having anything useful to fight vehicles with, while IFVs would shoot off their ATGMs at infantry in buildings and then not have them available for attacking vehicles. In Black Sea the chances that you are going to be fighting enemy MBTs, IFVs, or APCs is very, very high, so we wanted to be sure that your units would keep applicable weapon systems for those targets. This solution doesn't work all of the time, but it's definitely better than the old behavior. I want to fine tune it in the future.

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We also adjusted it down with many infantry AT systems when used against non-vehicle targets. In the early stages of Alpha the infantry and other vehicles used the behavior previously seen in Combat Mission, where they'd fire off pretty much anything they had at targets. The result was infantry dumping their AT weapons against infantry and not having anything useful to fight vehicles with, while IFVs would shoot off their ATGMs at infantry in buildings and then not have them available for attacking vehicles. In Black Sea the chances that you are going to be fighting enemy MBTs, IFVs, or APCs is very, very high, so we wanted to be sure that your units would keep applicable weapon systems for those targets. This solution doesn't work all of the time, but it's definitely better than the old behavior. I want to fine tune it in the future.

 

Are changes like these going to make it into other CMx2 products as normal patches for example?

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My infantry recently refused for several turns to fire their RPO anti personnel rockets an occupied building, despite area fire orders.

 

Odd. I tested this earlier today and they fired the RPOs into buildings without hesitation. But that was on a test map without anything else going on around them.

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We also adjusted it down with many infantry AT systems when used against non-vehicle targets. In the early stages of Alpha the infantry and other vehicles used the behavior previously seen in Combat Mission, where they'd fire off pretty much anything they had at targets. The result was infantry dumping their AT weapons against infantry and not having anything useful to fight vehicles with, while IFVs would shoot off their ATGMs at infantry in buildings and then not have them available for attacking vehicles. In Black Sea the chances that you are going to be fighting enemy MBTs, IFVs, or APCs is very, very high, so we wanted to be sure that your units would keep applicable weapon systems for those targets. This solution doesn't work all of the time, but it's definitely better than the old behavior. I want to fine tune it in the future.

 

 

Understandable, but wouldn't the target light command solve this?  Area fire at structures with the regular target command seems to be the case where you would want them to fire all assets available.

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Odd. I tested this earlier today and they fired the RPOs into buildings without hesitation. But that was on a test map without anything else going on around them.

 

I only noticed this behaviour a single time. There was a surpressed infantry squad in the target building and i wanted to use the RPO to kill them, but they didnt fire at the building. I had to maneuver a tank into position in order to kill the enemy in the building.

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I do wonder if there's a need for a "target heavy" option, similar to the target armour arc and the "target light" command.

The behaviour in CMSF was sub-optimal, in the sense that the US forces would waste anti-tank ammunition, but it did make the RPG-7 a terrifying thing to face in MOUT scenarios - one rocket could easily wipe out the team/squad if they were unlucky. Granted, this behaviour may be more suitable for asymmetric conflict, but ATGM's have a long history of being used against things which are not armour - Javelins in Iraq and Milans in the Falklands, for example.

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I experienced several times strange behavior concerning infantry held AT weapons. 

 

Look at this situation for example: 

- AT team and vehicle crew exit their vehicle

- they get shot at

- they take cover

- AT team fires it's only AT rocket

- AT team fires their thermo rocket 

 

all in the open, at close range - small arms seem to be the more adequate weapons for this situation

 

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I experienced several times strange behavior concerning infantry held AT weapons. 

 

Look at this situation for example: 

- AT team and vehicle crew exit their vehicle

- they get shot at

- they take cover

- AT team fires it's only AT rocket

- AT team fires their thermo rocket 

 

all in the open, at close range - small arms seem to be the more adequate weapons for this situation

 

 

LOL. Really. How many times would the OPPOSITE be decried? E.g., my AT team only used small arms and refused to fire their rockets at the enemy? (Err, kind of like how this thread started?)

 

I agree: in the situation you described, it's sub-optimal. Now, let's dig down. Were they surprised? (Real life: surprise/danger close, you trigger off whatever's in your hand.) After you've re-run the savegame 100 times, how many times did they use the sub-optimal weapons?

 

I just had a game turn where I had 3 engineers, totally black on small arms ammo. Down to 3 grenades and some demo charges. Yeah, they used the grenades which pinned the enemy for a few seconds, then, as they were being overrun, the engineers started tossing demo charges. Why wait? Because, as happened, one of the demo charges WIA'd one of the engineers.

 

There is a LOT going on under the hood. A one-off situation can be cause for investigation, not a conclusion.

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sorry, that I mentioned what I experienced. Won't do it again. From now on, I'll only participate in the praise-threads.

I can't make another fanboy like c3k break out in tears, because some ppl talk about what could be done better. Save ur tears.  :)

 

ChrisND said it all. It can be improved. 

 

[...] This solution doesn't work all of the time, but it's definitely better than the old behavior. I want to fine tune it in the future.

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sorry, that I mentioned what I experienced. Won't do it again. From now on, I'll only participate in the praise-threads.

I can't make another fanboy like c3k break out in tears, because some ppl talk about what could be done better.

Only you didn't. You posted a one-off anecdote where the engine didn't do what you expected, and didn't have the pTruppen do what *might*, under some considerations, be not the best thing to do. You didn't take into account that this sort of unpredictability is part of war, and soldiers "under the gun" don't always do the very best thing. There's a maxim: do something now rather than the right thing too late. Did the crew wax their harrassers with the weapons at their disposal? If so, then at least they're not adding to your KIA total and leaving unfired heavy ordnance on the map.

[qutoe]Save ur tears.

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ChrisND, thanks for your answer...

 

Your reasoning makes sence and despite my question/suggestion/complaint with this issue i  still think you guys have made another VERY good game. Thank you for that !

 

 

But still i cant help but to feel that there is a (very small !) piece missing. Giving the player the option to use their AT4s for example as an area target weapon- or against enemy infantry could bring another (small) tactical option to the game...Should i use them or not ?...Will i need them later..? 

 

Having played almost exclusivly as the americans so far i have pretty much no experience with the russian equipment as of yet but it seems according to others that the ruskies and ukranians have a bit more flexibility when it comes to targeting buildings and enemy infantry with their RPGs.

 

The americans however seems to have a very limited capability right now in an infantry fight to deliver 'a big bang' on enemy possitions.

 

I might very well be wrong about this but it has been my experience so far that the american hand held HE-weapons (M320, CDTE) have a quite limited effect when it comes to suppressing enemy troops inside Buildings (they can obiously do it but the enemy seems to be able to handle those hits to pretty well)..

 

I don't know if the protection levels of the buildings have been increased or if it is the use of body armour that help protect the soldiers from suppressing fire.

 

Whatever the reason i like it though that troops inside buildings are quite hard to suppress but it would be nice to have the OPTION to fire an AT4 into an enemy possition that is causing me lots of problems...

 

 

Regarding the Carl Gustav, Astano...thanks for the link...

 

Perhaps we will se this weapon in a future add-on...

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