Game suggestion - 'Acquire' from other units

[JonS]

Sorry Erwin, I missed that comment. Whenever this comes up there seem to be a lot of unrealistic expectations around how long it takes to bomb up, and this thread seemed no exception.

IMO some delay - however it is handled - should be mandatory.

[Holman]

IMHO, I think the 'Acquire' feature should only be used at beginning of game ( setup ), or when 'Reinforcments' arrive, and not during mid-game as stated above...Great for multi-Scenario's in a Campaign.

But it isn't just ammo that gets topped off with Acquire. It allows you to order a unit to (e.g.) get a bazooka and a specific number of rockets for it.

This is especially important in the modern-warfare context (CMSF or the upcoming Black Sea) where a carrier might have three or four different kinds of individually tracked weapons in its inventory.

[Pelican Pal]

There is a lot of opportunity to make things clearer and generally slicker with the use of some automation and proper UI enhancement. The unit icon, for example, would be a great place to give information about what the unit is doing and its progress doing so.

Currently there are a lot of weird inconsistency with realism and general lack of documentation/in game visualization of things happening. There doesn't seem to be a clear difference in fatigue based on weight of ammo carried (I've often seen lone riflemen carrying several hundred rounds of ammunition, tens of grenades, and a number of anti-tank gun rounds with no apparent ill effect). Collecting thousands of rounds of ammunition is done instantly, while it takes minutes to grab a a panzerfaust from a dead soldier. Men will share information and ammo between each other, but the details of when, how, and length of time this requires are all essentially unknown.

Generally speaking CM does a pretty good job of simulating the actual shooting and killing of the enemy, or at least it does so consistently across the board. While literally everything else is a hodgepodge of high detail, high abstraction, maybes, sometimes, only in this specific circumstance, and we don't knows.

[JoMac]

But it isn't just ammo that gets topped off with Acquire. It allows you to order a unit to (e.g.) get a bazooka and a specific number of rockets for it.

This is especially important in the modern-warfare context (CMSF or the upcoming Black Sea) where a carrier might have three or four different kinds of individually tracked weapons in its inventory.

Yes, and I understand that, but my post still stands...You have the opportunity to get your Ammo & other equipment at beginning of game or the turn that Reinforcments arrive.

[Holman]

Yes, and I understand that, but my post still stands...You have the opportunity to get your Ammo & other equipment at beginning of game or the turn that Reinforcments arrive.

How would doing it "on the turn the reinforcements arrive" actually work? And why limit it to that particular minute? My guys left their bazooka back in the truck, but now they see a line of halftracks snaking down the road. They should be able to send somebody back for the tube right now.

The current acquisition of ammo/etc from a physical location, clumsy as it is, is the most realistic system at this scale.

[JoMac]

How would doing it "on the turn the reinforcements arrive" actually work? And why limit it to that particular minute? My guys left their bazooka back in the truck, but now they see a line of halftracks snaking down the road. They should be able to send somebody back for the tube right now.

Reinforcements arriving would be treated as if it was the 1st turn of the game for them.

In regards to the Bazooka comment; Troops simply must prepare themseves before going into battle.

Atleast for me all the above would be a simplistic method of the 'Acquire' feature.

[JoMac]

There is a lot of opportunity to make things clearer and generally slicker with the use of some automation and proper UI enhancement. The unit icon, for example, would be a great place to give information about what the unit is doing and its progress doing so.

Currently there are a lot of weird inconsistency with realism and general lack of documentation/in game visualization of things happening. There doesn't seem to be a clear difference in fatigue based on weight of ammo carried (I've often seen lone riflemen carrying several hundred rounds of ammunition, tens of grenades, and a number of anti-tank gun rounds with no apparent ill effect). Collecting thousands of rounds of ammunition is done instantly, while it takes minutes to grab a a panzerfaust from a dead soldier. Men will share information and ammo between each other, but the details of when, how, and length of time this requires are all essentially unknown.

Generally speaking CM does a pretty good job of simulating the actual shooting and killing of the enemy, or at least it does so consistently across the board. While literally everything else is a hodgepodge of high detail, high abstraction, maybes, sometimes, only in this specific circumstance, and we don't knows.

In regards to Troop effectiveness when under load ( additional Ammo & equipment );

I really hope that troop performances are degraded under these situations, but haven't payed enough attention to see for myself...This would be a big issue for me if there were no such limitations on performance.

In regards to last paragraph; True, but I think 'Battlefront' wants Players to be immersed in the visible layer of CM, rather then worry about what's going on behind the scenes...However, Im with you and want some understandings of why things happen the way they do.

[Vanir Ausf B]

In regards to Troop effectiveness when under load ( additional Ammo & equipment );

I really hope that troop performances are degraded under these situations, but haven't payed enough attention to see for myself...This would be a big issue for me if there were no such limitations on performance.

They move slower and fatigue faster.

[Holman]

Reinforcements arriving would be treated as if it was the 1st turn of the game for them.

In regards to the Bazooka comment; Troops simply must prepare themseves before going into battle.

Atleast for me all the above would be a simplistic method of the 'Acquire' feature.

I'll have to disagree. The armored target is over there; the bazooka is back in the jeep. What would WW2 soldiers do?

I'll take realism over simplicity every time, and I imagine that BTS can streamline the game interface at no cost to the former.

[JoMac]

Actually, I think it's realistic enough and simplistic all at the same time.

[JoMac]

They move slower and fatigue faster.

Vanir,

I know it applies to Weapons Units...HMG/Mortar with Tripods & Ammo, etc will move slower & Fatigue faster then Regular Infantry.

However, does this also apply to units that 'Acquire' extra Ammo, Zooks, etc at any point during the game...I would amagine if a Team/Squad acquired additional Ammo from a Truck it would have some detrimental effects to performance.

[Erwin]

Re carrying tons of extra ammo... I can't recall if actual tests have been published here, but we have been told that units laden with ammo etc either move slower or tire faster (I forget which). However, like many other aspects the difference is so subtle it's hardly noticeable.

In addition to revamping the ACQUIRE order it would be good (and more realistic) to increase the penalty for carrying tons of ammo/extra weapons. It's hard to imagine a two man team carrying the thousands of rounds our pixeltruppen ubermen are able to with hardly any problem.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Vanir,

However, does this also apply to units that 'Acquire' extra Ammo, Zooks, etc at any point during the game...I would amagine if a Team/Squad acquired additional Ammo from a Truck it would have some detrimental effects to performance.

I'm pretty sure it is supposed to work that way although I've never really tested it. It does seem that you can acquire a lot of ammo before it makes a noticeable difference. If you are very curious it would be fairly easy to test. Set up a scenario with a truck and 2 sniper teams at 50% headcount. Have one sniper acquire the entire truck contents then have him race the other sniper at Quick speed.

[Sailor Malan2]

I am curious. How many people on this thread have military, or better, combat experience? One way we can all get some (poor) simulation of combat is paintball... not lasers, you need the 'ow' factor of those little balls hitting you, the sting and the bruise. Now go and find an arena with a resident team of competent players (they all have them). Get your team of mates together, and ask the competent team to play against you. Now try an advance (or even defend). When the bad guys pop up unexpectedly, and balls are clipping the leaves above you head, and you are thinking 'oh s*** how did they get there, now what do we do?', I want you to be aware of who in you team has been hit, where, how much ammo they have and what type of gun they are using. Use this information to decide who to help, whose gun to take, and whether you need ammo. Oh, and when moving to actually execute the above, don't get hit now - it stings! Then tell me if you think the current system in CM is that bad.

Combat, once in contact, and especially when effective hits are being taken is noise, fear and chaos all mixed up and covered in mud (or dust!). Command your total forces and stop trying to play chess. Chess players calculate every option. CM players play the odds, use sound doctrine and improvise. Want to have more control? Play Tetris.

My personal 2c philosophy.

[Michael Emrys]

SM2, I am with you all the way on that. If CM reproduced all the chaos of an actual battlefield, very, very few would want to play it. Most rational people who have lived through actual combat are not eager to repeat the experience.

Michael

[Erwin]

Yes, this a game... an entertainment product... gamers want verisimilitude - including ease and convenience of play. That means all the boring, annoying bits stripped out, leaving the fun bits. 100% reality is very rarely fun.

[Michael Emrys]

100% reality is very rarely fun.

Well...there was a brief period from the middle to the late '60s that wasn't so bad...

Michael

[Sailor Malan2]

Yes, this a game... an entertainment product... gamers want verisimilitude - including ease and convenience of play. That means all the boring, annoying bits stripped out, leaving the fun bits. 100% reality is very rarely fun.

Agree, but there are many many products out there that provide that already. Don't try and change the only one that is a little bit different into another clone. I am not arguing that CM should be more realistic (my pc hasn't got a 'poke user in the arm really hard' feature anyway), but don't try and dumb it down for the arcade experience...

[Whiterider]

We should never forget CM is a game, a realistic one, but a game after all. Realism is always welcome if doesn´t bring an excess of micromanagement or boredom. Why? Because games were created for fun, and that´s its main purpose. Many games don´t follow this path: These are the bad ones.

That´s my theory.

[Erwin]

There is nothing "realistic" about squads or teams having to wait in a line by a vehicle for ammo, while being unable to exchange ammo with adjacent units.

I think the CM2 game is about as good as it can get or needs to be. What I hope BF can put more focus on in the future is making the ergonomics, the practical UI issues or how we play CM2 somewhat more efficient and easier (NOT dumbing down the game/sim itself).

I will start a sep thread re ergonomics...

[Pete Wenman]

There is nothing "realistic" about squads or teams having to wait in a line by a vehicle for ammo, while being unable to exchange ammo with adjacent units.

Actually it's not as unrealistic as you might think.

If you are bombing up from a vehicle then you ought to be out of LOS/LOF from any combat.

As such other units will not be looking to pass their ammo to you, rather that you do indeed collect from the resupply point.

As for breaking down ammo, it is a matter of each man either being passed or collecting rounds, so waiting in line is how it looks. Rounds are likely to be boxed/clipped rather than preloaded into magazines, so each man will likely then fill any empty magazines as soon as he has fresh rounds. The rest will be packed away.

This is not a 30 second job, and does generally require a unit to queue in some way for each member to collect their issue of fresh ammo.

If the distribution is being done in LOS/LOF of enemy units then it's gone so badly wrong that the distribution of ammo is the least of your problems.

Is the current system perfect - No, but I don't think it's nearly as broken as you suggest. Bombing up is a critical task that takes organisation and time to achieve in both real life and the game.

P

[sburke]

Actually it's not as unrealistic as you might think.

If you are bombing up from a vehicle then you ought to be out off LOS/LOF from any combat.

As such other units will not be looking to pass their ammo to you, rather that you do indeed collect from the resupply point.

As for breaking down ammo, it is a matter of each man either being passed or collecting rounds, so waiting in line is how it looks. Rounds are likely to be boxed/clipped rather than preloaded into magazines, so each man will likely then fill any empty magazines as soon as he has fresh rounds. The rest will be packed away.

This is not a 30 second job, and does generally require a unit to queue in some way for each member to collect their issue of fresh ammo.

If the distribution is being done in LOS/LOF of enemy units then it's gone so badly wrong that the distribution of ammo is the least of your problems.

Is the current system perfect - No, but I don't think it's nearly as broken as you suggest. Bombing up is a critical task that takes organisation and time to achieve in both real life and the game.

P

Yeah reading Thunder Run right now. At Objective Curly the supply vehicles rolled up right into the fighting to resupply. 5 trucks destroyed and folks still had to(under fire) run up to the trucks and grab ammo to resupply the mortars, Bradleys etc. Exclamation from one Sgt as the supply trucks rolled up "wtf are you doing here, you trying to get us killed?!".

I think CM tends to be a bit more realistic than folks think and those Pita moments are kind of real life pita moments. LOL

[Erwin]

In RT, one can a) split a squad into teams, board multiple teams into a vehicle, c) acquire, d) disembark, e) reconstitute to squad for resupply in a couple seconds (with pauses).

Not realistic or desirable imo.

If 30 secs is too short make it a 60 second wait - or whatever you want. You seem to miss the point that to do a) thru e) in WEGO for a large number of units is a PITA and not realistic.

I am only concerned about taking away the dumb aspects of CM2 so it's easier to handle the UI and play - certainly NOT dumbing it down.

[A Canadian Cat]

that to do a) thru e) in WEGO for a large number of units is a PITA and not realistic.

I am only concerned about taking away the dumb aspects of CM2 so it's easier to handle the UI and play - certainly NOT dumbing it down.

In other words instead of managing the clickfest of a) through e) allow all the units near the truck to execute a acquire command and have them wait for an appropriate amount of time before they get going again.

It should probably be a variable time based on how much ammo was requested and it should be cancel able so if you asked for a lot of ammo for a full squad and it is taking minutes you can say OK they have enough now get going and forget the rest I asked for.

[AlexUK]

In other words instead of managing the clickfest of a) through e) allow all the units near the truck to execute a acquire command and have them wait for an appropriate amount of time before they get going again.

It should probably be a variable time based on how much ammo was requested and it should be cancel able so if you asked for a lot of ammo for a full squad and it is taking minutes you can say OK they have enough now get going and forget the rest I asked for.

Yes, like this a lot - happy to take a time penalty to reduce the hassle.